[HPforGrownups] Crouch Sr

[Silvercat]

No: HPFGUIDX 37696

Okay, before I start, let me just say a few things; this is my first
post, so hi everyone.  And I've only read GoF once, rather quickly (I
don't have it yet, boohoo).

charisjulia wrote:
> Well, take the granting of new powers to the Aurors. Powers to kill.
> Ermm, really, how can I put this delicately? Errmm, well, hmmm,
> but. . . *look who's talking*?! And after all there was a war going
> on. To say the truth I had been rather taking it for granted that
> there must have been killings and was quite surprised that the fact
> was referred to with such a scandalised manner. 

But was it really a war? How big of a group was the DEs?  It seemed more
like a sinister conspiracy to me.  Although if they formed the Aurors
just to fight the DEs, it could be considered a very big deal.  I can't
really think of a good comparision...  Apparently the WW tries to take
the moral highroad.  After all, death is very, very permament.  You
can't get information from a corpse.  You can't rehabilitate a corpse. 
And (for the more upset people) you can't punish a corpse.

charisjulia wrote:
> And then there's everyone's reaction to Crouch's handling of his
> son's crimes: Hermione whispers "Did Crouch try and get his son off?"-
> -What, was he supposed to do that? Evidently as the truth apparently
> appalls Harry: "He gave his own son to the Dementors?" he asked
> quietly.

Remember these are teenagers.  They would want their parents to get them
off.  They haven't had to deal with the hard facts of life yet for the
most part.  The Dementors severely affected Harry, and both he and
Hermione are very kind; they wouldn't want to punish anyone that way.
Did any of the adults act surprised?

charisjulia wrote:
> The fact that Barty Jr just happened to have a father in high
> places should not affect the enforcement of justice. Of course in
> this case it in fact * did* and the outcome was not very advantageous
> for poor Barty. That is of course equally unacceptable. However
> that's another matter altogether and one that rather deals with the
> ohsoveryeasily corruptible law system the wizarding society has
> working (or not working) here. 

But pretty darn realistic.  He did have way too much power.  However, it
was a desperate situation, they didn't have time for checks and
balances.

charisjulia wrote:
> Both of them are, it would seem, grey characters. (though the jury is
> still out on Bagman's general innocence) I like that. It makes a bit
> of a break in the Good Guys/Bad Guys game and hopefully indicates
> more such characters to come as Harry moves further afield and out of
> his close circle of friends. Now all we need to find out is that
> Crouch Jr was a bad egg of Ravenclaw (he's not really ambitious, just
> extremely vindictive and of course devilishly clever) and there you
> have it! A precedent is set!

Amen on all counts.

charisjulia wrote:
> To be honest I never really liked the
> way Crouch treated Percy, at least if his behaviour at the Quidditch
> World Cup is any indication. I mean, he hasn't even gone to the
> trouble of learning his own personal assistant's real name for crying
> out loud! 

I've been thinking about that.  Now, remember I've only read the book
once, but...
What if Crouch is confused at that point and mistaking Percy for someone
else?  A former assistant or something.  One would expect Mr. Weasley to
say something, but he can't know *everyone* in the MoM.  It's
foreshadowing for the later scenes.

charisjulia wrote:
> Remember Sirius's comment about looking at how a man treats
> his subordinates to understand what he's really like? Crouch's whole
> attitude towards Percy in the scene borders on the dismissive. After
> all he's in Percy's environment, surrounded by Percy's friends and
> family, he could give him the time of day or at least drink the lousy
> tea! Percy's obviously bending over backwards (or hunching over
> frontwards as the case may be) to please him and he can't even manage
> anything more than "mild surprise" at seeing him. And I bet Crouch
> never even read the cauldron report . . . <sigh>

But if he's confused or whatever, he could just be mildly surprised. 
Maybe the original Weatherby could never be found outside the office. 
Pet theories with no evidence...

DG wrote:
> But to me, the "I have no son!" is Sr's attempt to try and come to 
> terms with what he has had to do. It's a healing thing, a 
> rationalization thing. As black a snake as Sr knows Jr to be, it 
> still cannot be easy to send him off like that.

I don't know about healing.  His later actions definately show he feels
guilty.  I think it was just basic denial, trying to divorce his
feelings from what he *had* to do.  Too bad it failed.

Petra wrote:
> It's possible that the short time he spent in Azkaban was enough to 
> complete (if not begin)  his "going over to the dark side" since 
> there's certainly nothing holding him back - his mother was no Lily 
> Potter and his father has disowned him.  It'd be an interesting bit of 
> self-fulfilling prophecy, so to speak.  Imprison the not entirely 
> innocent and he transforms into what he was accused of being.  This 
> could also support Voldemort as a father substitute.

Ew.  I don't think *anyone* could consider Voldemort a father, of any
type.

> Consider this: if Crouch Jr. was already a full-fledged DE when he was 
> caught, wouldn't his denial of Voldemort at the trial make him less 
> than Voldemort's faithful servant whose loyalty has NEVER wavered?

But were there any of those?  Didn't the ones who stayed out of Azkaban
do it mostly by saying they were controlled?

Barb wrote:
> You make a good point.  It is true that in the Pensieve scene, 
> Barty, Jr. consistently denies any wrongdoing, while his co-
> defendant (Mrs. Lestrange?) speaks like a heretic about to be burned 
> who refuses to recant her apostacy.  (I also think other Inquisition-
> type similarities to this tribunal are completely intentional.)

But isn't he younger than her?  He isn't quite as fanatical and much
more desperate to stay out. (perhaps heard stories from his dad about
how bad it is?)  Could just be a difference in personality. 

On the whole Dark Mark thing, I think it was a very unwise idea of
Voldemort's.  I mean, brand everyone so anyone can see?  When you and
your group are being hunted down?  Very, very arrogant and overconfidant
(which about sums him up).
-- 
Silvercat / Phoenix - 

So what do you need? Besides a miracle.
Guns. Lots of guns.
-Tank and Neo, Matrix 
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