Thoughts on MAGIC DISHWASHER (WAS: Wandless!Harry - A Fatal Flaw?)

[grey_wolf_c]

No: HPFGUIDX 43125

Phyllis disagrees with MAGIC DISHWASHER:
> (1) I find contradictory the conclusions that <Voldemort intended for 
> Harry to escape the graveyard> and that <Voldemort cannot afford to 
> let Harry grow up>.  If Voldemort cannot afford to let Harry grow up, 
> why would he *intentionally* allow him to escape the graveyard, which 
> has been his best opportunity so far to dispose of him (IMO)?  I do 
> believe that Voldemort cannot afford to let Harry grow up.  I'm sorry 
> I can't attribute this to the brilliant listie who came up with it, 
> but I like the theory that Voldemort knew of Professor Trelawney's 
> first accurate prediction that a boy born at a certain time (perhaps 
> on a night when no planets were visible in the sky for an extended 
> period of time <thanks to Shaun for figuring this out :)> would be 
> his downfall.

You can't have everything, and Voldemort chose that which was possible. 
He may not be able to allow Harry to grow up, but killing the brat has 
been proven to be nearly impossible, after all. His plans take into 
consideration the fact that it may be altoghether possible that Harry 
cannot be killed, and his primary plan in the graveyard ("plan A") did 
not include killing Harry. As I've said, although Voldemort knows that 
Harry needs killing, he's still has a few more years before Harry 
becomes a real menace. Let me explain this:

Plan A was, obvioulsy, his resurrection. For that purpose, he needs to 
be at the Riddle manor, Have Wormtail (or any other DE) with him , and 
to capture an enemy (Harry). Plan A goes without a single problem (for 
now, at any rate).

Plan B: what to do with Harry. Normally, this plan would be "kill the 
captured enemy", but Voldemort is not as stupid as to think he can kill 
Harry. After all, the boy has escaped him twice already. Thus, the plan 
includes debilitating his enemies by feeding them false information, 
just in case Harry escapes again. He's going to try to kill him, but if 
events prove him unsuccesful again, he'll still have gained something. 
This comes out more or less right: Harry escapes, but takes a lot of 
misinformation about "divided ranks" and "lingering doubts" with him. 

Voldemort is now back to his old self, and he can start planning how to 
neutralize Harry (which may or may not include killing him). 
Metathinking tells us that he wont find a way, but Voldemort doesn't 
know that. Voldemort doesn't know he lives in a series of books called 
"Harry Potter". For him, his greatest enemy is still Dumbledore. And 
the fact is that Harry is just one person. I've said before that 
Voldemort was winning the war at the time of his downfall, even when 
Dumbledore was his oponent. Harry is just another Dumbledore in his 
eyes, and if the old one wasn't enough to stop him, the new one 
shouldn't be much better. And, as I've said, he still has a couple of 
years before Harry finishes his training.

> Which means I must also respectfully disagree with the <Voldemort 
> intentionally rigged the Triwizard Cup portkey so it would return 
> Harry to Hogwarts> conclusion.  My theory is that James' ghostly self 
> (in the corrected version of GoF) rigged the Cup to return to 
> Hogwarts so that Harry could escape.  Otherwise, how would James' 
> ghost have known to tell Harry "you must get to the portkey, it will 
> return you to Hogwarts..." (GoF, US hardback ed., p. 667)?  Harry 
> wouldn't have known that the Portkey was two-way, as he's had no 
> experience to date with two-way Portkeys.  James' ghost had to tell 
> him and the priori incantatem which produced James' ghost was 
> unplanned by Voldemort (on that, we agree!).

Um, you seem to have missed a couple of the patches. This is no longer 
part of MAGIC DISHWASHER: Voldemort didn't rig the Portkey to take 
Harry back: Crouch!Moody wasn't able to change the destination of the 
Cup, which *was* a portkey designed by Dumbledore to take you to the 
entrance of the maze (after all, the last thing you want after winning 
the Triwizard Tournament is to backtrace your steps through a maze 
filled with dangers). Cruouch!Moody only put in an extra stop. While 
it's difficult to explain how could James's shadow know about this, I 
find it more believable that he knew Voldemort's thoughts through the 
use of the wand than believing that a shadow (they're not even ghosts, 
just images of their former selves) is able to create a portkey to an 
unplotable, apparition-banned place on the fly and without even 
concentrating on it and while stopping a very powerful wizard.
 
> (2) I also respectfully disagree with the <Harry was allowed to 
> escape so he could feed misinformation to Dumbledore> conclusion.  
> While I agree that Voldemort and Dumbledore are waging an 
> intelligence campaign, I don't believe this was part of Voldemort's 
> plan.  If it was, Fake!Moody wouldn't have tried to kill Harry before 
> Harry had a chance to relay the <false> information to Dumbledore.

You are supposing that Crouch knew Voldemort's plans. I don't think 
Voldemort would tell Crouch anything that he didn't need to know. After 
all, what he doesn't know, he can't reveal. And Voldemort knew that 
Crouch wouldn't want to follow with his plans if he knew he was going 
to let the DE go with only a small speech. Notice that Crouch is *very* 
vexed when Voldemort doesn't kill the lot of them. Voldemort's plans 
for that night don't include anything after Harry's escape. Crouch 
looses control there at the end in his desire to know what happened 
with the other DE.

> (3) While I agree that Harry can be killed, I do not agree that he 
> needs to be weakened first.  The reason Baby!Harry resisted the AK 
> was due to the <love-shield> from Lily's sacrifice.  Voldemort, in 
> Dumbledore's words, "has overcome that particular barrier" (GoF, p. 
> 696) by using Harry's blood in his regeneration potion.  I still 
> maintain that the Cruciatus and Imperius curses Voldemort submitted 
> Harry to in the graveyard were meant to both bolster Voldemort's ego 
> as well as to prove to his DEs that he can completely control Harry 
> in order to re-establish his DE power base.

Dumbledore knows that Voldemort has managed to overcome that barrier, 
but he understands the barrier much better than Voldemort does. In 
fact, Voldemort does *not* understand what the barrier is *at all*, and 
he's distrustful of the potion. After all, the potion is *not* desigend 
to copy the love shield, it is just for re-corporating. Voldemort 
doesn't know if Harry is still protected from him, and he plays safe by 
trying out curses on him, until the danger becomes higher: when Harry 
even *hints* of responding, he chances the AK.
 
> (4) I also respectfully disagree with the <Lucius is loyal> 
> conclusion.  Voldemort himself calls him "slippery" (GoF, p. 650).  I 
> think the DE march at the Quidditch World Cup and the planting of the 
> diary were both solely Lucius' ideas.  Both the DE march and the 
> diary were aimed at hurting/humiliating Muggles.  In addition, one of 
> the goals of the diary incident was to discredit Arthur Weasley's 
> Muggle Protection Act which Lucius opposes.  IMO, while Voldemort 
> does not like Muggles, I do not believe his main goal is to wipe out 
> Muggles.  I believe that wiping out Muggles *is* the main goal of 
> many of his DEs, especially Lucius, and Voldemort allows them to do 
> this as a way of keeping them loyal to him.  I don't think that if 
> Voldemort was behind Lucius' organizing of the DE march, Lucius would 
> have run from the Dark Mark Fake!Moody shot into the sky.

Voldemort uses muggles for the same purpose he uses eveyone else: 
they're a mean to an end: a way to terrorize the population into 
submission. So, killing muggles is, in fact, one of his ideas. I don't 
think he encourages independent though between his DEs, and he could do 
without the muggles (he hates all the muggles because of his father's 
actions). Don't believe anything Voldemort says in the graveyard, 
either (I assume that page 650 is the graveyard. My GoF *hasn't* 650 
pages. Please quote chapters, not page numbers), since he's 
misinforming. And MAGIC DISHWASHER doesn't have to say that Voldemort 
organizes the DE march in the championship: the comunication could've 
started *after* the world cup (this was also patched after Pip exposed 
the basic teory, IIRC).
 
> ~Phyllis
> who appreciates Grey Wolf saying that she's made a <substantial 
> contribution,> even if it's to a theory she doesn't completely
> support

The offer is still open, to you and to anyone who finds this theory 
believable. Of course, the Safe House is always open to anyone who 
wants to develop it's own version of the Dumbledore-Voldemort 
information war, or any other conspiration/spy game theory.

Hope that helps,

Grey Wolf