Time Travel in PoA - The Map (was: Re: Lupin is James and Ti...

[sharana.geo <sharana.geo@yahoo.com>]

No: HPFGUIDX 48935

angela wrote:
>But ok, this then goes back to the question recently asked, why
> didn't H&H2 show up on the Maurader's Map when Lupin was examining
> it.  It might be said that once he saw PP on the map he was so in
> wonder of that and observing that, that he was not looking at
> other people in the vicinity.  But Lupin states that he watched
> the Trio (sans Peter) walk down towards Hagrid's hut, and we know
> that H&H2 were very closely trailing the Trio, on the open lawns
> at night where no one else was around.  There is no WAY Lupin
> didn't see that.  But if the time travel does NOT create a
> parallel dimension, then H&H 2 SHOULD have shown up.  So here are
> my thoughts on this, there are three options.
>
> 1) it is a flint
>
> 2) Lupin DID see H&H2 and knew what was going on (that is that
> they were time traveling, Lupin as a teacher could have know about
> Hermione's time turner).  And then for unseen reasons never
> brought this up.
>
> 3) H&H 2 DID not show up because of a failure of the map.  I think
> we all treat this map as this unerring magical object.  Yes it is
> powerful, and impresses many people including Fake!Moody.  But we
> must remember that it was created by humans, kids in fact (though
> brilliant kids indeed).  Lupin says he thought the map
> was "malfunctioning" when he saw Peter.  Yes, this might be
> because anything would be more believable that Peter back from the
> dead, but it also shows that one of the mpas creators believes
> that the map could not function properly.  I think it a stretch to
> assume that these school kids created an all-powerful and all
> -knowing magical object.  Maybe the the map could not "process"
> the appearance of "time travelers".


I can give you option number 4 (which reading your post, just 
occurred to me, shame I didn't read it 2 minutes ago when I posted a 
discussion on this, as I believe helps me prove what I have trying 
to say from the beginning: that Harry did NOT cast the Patronus the 
first time):

Option 4:

H&H2 do NOT show up on the map, because they do not exist at that 
point in time. The time loop has NOT been created yet. In the 
Shrieking Shack we are told that "The Map never lies". Lupin thought 
that there must be a mistake because he saw PP in it, he was 
confused about it as he believed PP was dead. He was just about to 
go to find out for himself what was going on, when he saw Sirius on 
the map. 

Later he arrives at the Shrieking Shack and finds Harry pointing his 
wand to Sirius. His first reaction is to disarm everyone. Then he 
asks Sirius "Where is he" referring to Peter. He sees that Peter is 
Ron's Rat and realizes that Peter took Sirius place being Secret-
Keeper. 

If you notice all these chain of events are linked directly to 
Peter, not to H&H2, appearing on the map. Lupin needs to understand 
why Peter is alive and there with them, which is why the first thing 
he does it to disarm Harry. He realizes that if Peter is alive and 
has not shown himself yet, is because something fishy is going on.

So H&H2 do not appear on the map because the time loop has not been 
created, later when Lupin turns into a werewolf, Sirius goes after 
him, nobody knows what happens and suddenly Sirius appears in human 
form, being affected by the Dementors, and Lupin escapes him. 

Lupin did drink the Wolfsbane Potion (he never clarified Snapes 
remark about not drinking it), so Lupin being a werewolf arrives at 
the border of the Lake and sees in the distance that the Dementors 
are about to kiss someone, he knows his friends are out there 
somewhere, probably being those who the Dementors are about to kiss, 
so he casts the Patronus Charm to drive the Dementors away. 

Remember the Wolfsbane Potion does not prevent Lupin turning into a 
werewolf, it gives the werewolf control of his body, preventing him 
to attack others and himself.

Then, as Harry wasn't kissed, he and Hermione are able to go back in 
time (creating the time loop) to save Buckbeak and Sirius. But while 
doing that, he did something really stupid: he runs to the lake 
eager to see if it was his dad who cast the Patronus

(I will cut-paste what I just posted in my last message about this)

--------------------------------

To me Harry cast the Patronus because he did something very 
dangerous, which he was told not to do, he ran to the lake eager to 
see who cast the Patronus that had saved him (wishing to see his 
father). He wasn't supposed to do that, he wasn't supposed to be 
there. He was lucky he thought about casting the Patronus himself, 
at that moment, if he hadn't succeeded in casting the Patronus, or 
if he just sat there another minute, waiting for someone else to 
appear; he would have screwed up his life. 

As Hermione says (PoA, Page 398), nobody is supposed to change time, 
it is one of the most important wizarding laws. McGonagall told 
Hermione: "awful things have happened when wizards have meddled with 
time...Loads of them ended up killing their past or future selves by 
mistake!" This is the main reason why it was made a Law, to protect 
the life of all wizards.

Harry made the same mistake these wizards (the ones McGonagall talks 
about) did. He changed his past without fully realizing the 
consequences of what he was doing (he was just hoping to see his 
dad); only he was lucky enough to correct his mistake, without 
realizing it, just in time.

-----------------------------------


I don't know at what point you caught up on this thread. To fully 
understand why I believe in this 4th option, please refer to all the 
messages about "Remus is James" and "Time travel in PoA".

Hope it helps!!

And thanks for giving my this idea!

Sharana