Parenting across cultures

[Tabouli]

No: HPFGUIDX 35488

Gwen (quoting me):
> > He doesn't connect to his son. He threatens him, he bullies him
> > (verbally, *never* physically, IMO--that's part of Draco's problem),
> > he rewards him with material goods (inconsistently, btw) and
> > apparently indulges Narcissa's tendency to spoil him (sweets, choosing
> > Hogwarts over Durmstrang despite his reservations about Dumbledore).
> > But...he doesn't show his love in any meaningful way.<
>
> "You know, whenever I read people talking about Draco being neglected
> and abused, I keep getting a whiff of cultural and era differences at
> work.  The modern ideal of parents who hug their children regularly,
> tell them they're great all the time, strive to be encouraging and
> supportive and complimentary about everything they do, democratic,
> explanatory, negotiation based parenting, etc.etc. is a very recent
> and, I think, particularly American development."

Gwen:
> Tabouli. No. You have completely misconstrued what I was referring to;
I used some shorthand there because I've talked about this at length
before.  In fact, if you'll notice, I mentioned that I think
part of Draco's problem is that he is *not* disciplined consistently.<

Oo.  OK, sorry about that.  But do note that I said "whenever I read *people* saying that...", implying numerous past comments.  My mistake was apparently to class your comments in the same category.  From what I've seen in countless earlier posts (of which yours reminded me, though evidently the intention of yours was different), there's a strong contigent of Draco-sympathisers out there who argue that Lucius' comments in Knockturn Alley constitute abuse, and cite them as evidence that Draco is a neglected, pitiable figure whose self-esteem has been shattered by his father's criticism.  An interpretation which I suspect has its origin in the observation that Lucius' behaviour is manifestly *not* "supportive and encouraging and fostering Draco's self-esteem", fundamental tenets of the model of good parenting I described.

Inconsistent discipline is, I admit, a different thing (and apt to lead to a child who constantly pushes his luck because sometimes it works - intermittent reinforcement).

Gwen:
> This is not about culture and not about touchy-feely ickle
woobiekins crap.  I *hate* that modern psychological, "negotiation-based" as you put it,
parenting bullhockey.<

The point I was trying to make was that an assessment of someone's parenting like "is Lucius' behaviour abuse?" is depends on the standard of "good parenting" you are using.  And this standard *is* about culture.  Definitely.  Totally.  Where do we get our ideas about what good parenting is?  From our parents, from our media, from our society and the parenting we see working and not working in it.  Some Anglophones may reject that modern psychological parenting bullhockey, but they know about it, because they've seen it, read about it, watched it on TV and in movies.  Somone who grew up in Pakistan would probably never have heard of this style of parenting and the language that goes with it (as the various Pakistanis I interviewed told me).  Someone who grew up in an old-fashioned Chinese family (and I know *lots* of these, I'm even related to some) would have learned that parents rarely praise, if ever, because it encourages complacency and conceit... a good parent is a critical parent who motivates the child to keep on working hard.  My Singaporean Chinese cousins (now early to late 30s) were severely reprimanded (forget Lucius' mild sneers) and even caned when they did poorly at school, and are now happy, highly successful professionals and in functional relationships (evidence of operational "self-esteem"?).  I was appalled when I heard this, but then, I was brought up in Australia where such behaviour would be reportable and considered to do terrible damage to children.  Different cultural standards.

I worked with 30 teachers working with hearing-impaired children from non-Anglo-Australian cultural backgrounds, and fielded comment after question about the parenting styles the teachers had witnessed.  Being well-meaning people, they were falling over themselves saying everything *but* "those poor children are subjected to such terrible parenting!", as people want to when witnessing something that violates their cultural values about something as important as the way children are raised.  Fortunately, I'd got a list of the cultures they were working with in advance and read about and interviewed people in those communities to get an idea of those cultural groups' definitions of "good parenting", "good teaching" and so on, so I was able to put together an explanation of their different parenting logic (and what a well-meaning Anglo-Australian teacher could do about it).


Gwen:
> I'm not sure how you got to that extreme from my
saying merely that Lucius is not connected in any meaningful way to
Draco. I think Lucius cares about his son, but I don't get the
impression that he *likes* his son--he disdains him. He doesn't know
what to do with Draco.<

Ah.  Here I think we have another example of cultural differences, in this case Australian/US.  Australians, as I've often mentioned, tend to be *very* cynical and anti-pretension.  A lot of Australians (myself, to some degree, included) would barely manage to get the phrases "quality time", "connect with his son" or "express his love in a meaningful way" out of their mouths without several truckloads of irony to compensate for saying what they would see as utterly EWW!  modern (and unforgiveably American) "psychological parenting bullhockey".  I think my immediate association of these phrases with the bullhockey you mention was me making the overinclusive Australian assumption that the phrases go together with the philosophy.

Gwen:
> In short, Lucius is motivated by *selfish* reasons to display first a "normal"
father-son relationship, and then his firm parenting style, to someone
who might otherwise get the impression that Lucius is a pushover. It's
not about Draco at all.<

Sounds like status consciousness all over to me.  Though the very notion that parenting *should* be child-centred rather than parent-centred (or extended family centred) is individualist.  In a lot of cultures the overall needs and image of the family are considered to be more important than the specific individual needs of the child, and the child endorses this... it would be unforgiveably selfish to put your own needs before those of the parents who raised you and looked after you and to whom you have a lifelong obligation.  Unthinkable.  (As oft my mother tells her foul and selfish daughter...)

Tabouli.


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