Fudge/ PI'ing Sirius' wand/ Reverse Memory/ Flitwick/ James life debt etc

[Edblanning at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 35802



--Dicentra, who would think of an acronym but it's lunch time, writes:

> But if you want to go for a more nuanced Fudge--someone who is
> indifferent about Good and Evil and plays both sides against each
> other for his own benefit, then THAT would be an interesting theory.
> 
Well, that in a way is a bit how I see him. I'm not at all convinced that he 
is an inner circle, Dark-Mark-stamped DE. I have actually only suggested that 
1) he was one of Rookwoods network of informants
2) he was Pettigrew's accomplice
3) he has simply sided with whichever side seemed to have the upper hand.

This view deprives him of any excuses. Whether he is an active supporter of 
Voldemort's regime, a  collaborator, or merely a coward who stands by and 
allows evil to happen, we've got him!  

The idea of indifference to good and evil of course ties in nicely with 
D.I.A.N.A.'s ideas about the conflict in the series being not so much as 
between good and evil but between those who recognise these values and those 
who don't.

Kitty answers a question attributed to me (Eloise -  I think I quoted it)

>> > Why, some have asked, did they not simply perform a Priori Incantatum 
>> > on Black's wand or Peter's (assuming he left it behind)? 

>Just as DNA testing has only been a possibility for us muggles for short 
time and >decades old crimes can now be solved (maybe even Jack-the-Ripper, 
saw that on >TV), isn't it possible that Priori Incantem wasn't available in 
the early 80's?  >Perhaps this "new test" could help clear Sirius and convict 
Pettigrew?!  Can you >see Pettigrew scurrying around with his wand, Sirius's 
and V's to hide them? >(Sirius's blasted from his hand in P's big blow.)  
 
I ( Eloise) respond,

Ah ha! The old 'perhaps that spell wasn't available then' defence!
F.I.E. upon you and your eminently reasonable suggestion!
I confess you had me worried there. I had visions of Dicentra and myself 
excavating our way out of the ruins of the carefully crafted 
F.I.D.E.D.I.G.N.O. building.
But no, I don't think so.
First of all, since Priori Incantatem exists as a natural phenomenon, as in 
what happened between Voldy's and Harry's wands, I think it unlikely that it 
was so recently that wizards managed to harness the effect via Prior 
Incantato.
Secondly even if you are correct, I wonder why Dumbledore hasn't done this 
already and released Sirius from his canine troglodytic exile. Why hasn't he? 
Because Sirius is framed, good and proper and it won't help. 
If you get this via digest, you probably haven't had the finer points of the 
theory. I don't see him scurrying round with three wands. At some point 
between the events at Godric's Hollow and the massacre he arranges the 
transfer of Voldy's wand to a person or persons unknown ( but strongly 
suspected to be either Fudge or L. Malfoy or, ,just thought of this, what 
about Crouch Jr - isn't this *before* he's imprisoned?). He drops his guilty 
wand at the scene, where Fudge switches it for Sirius'. It doesn't matter 
that it's *not* his, just that the impression is given that he *used* it. 
                   **********************************************************
Kitty wonders why no one is responding to her great ideas :{!  Are these 
getting through?  Are they too short?)

Kitty my dear!
I know, its so frustrating when that happens. But the trouble is that if 
people agree with you and don't have anything to add, its difficult to say so 
unless you contact them personally because of the one line 'Me too' embargo.

Just for the record, I think your explanation of how Pettigrew ended up with 
the Weasley's is eminently reasonable. The only way I would change it is to 
suggest that rather than just letting himself be found, he probably 
masqueraded as an escaped pet rat in the animal emporium. Wild rats don't 
have a terribly savoury reputation and tend to be disease ridden, apart from 
being...well, *wild*.
           ****************************************************************

Cindy explains about Mrs Lestrange and the Reverse Memory charm:

>The reason is 
>that Mrs. Lestrange (like Elkins) has never *heard* of a Reverse 
>Memory Charm, you see.  Really, how often do wizards need to perform 
>a charm like that?  It doesn't come up every day.  So Moody the 
>skilled Auror knows about it, and Crouch Sr. the head of magical law 
>enforcement knows about it.  Evil-Overlords-In-Training like Mrs. 
>Lestrange have never heard of Reverse Memory Charm.  Lucky for 
>Neville that Mrs. Lestrange didn't know about the Reverse Memory 
>Charm, too, because Mrs. Lestrange isn't grey enough to spare 
>Neville if she believed him to be a threat.

Eloise:
And of course, she works for that Evil OverLord 'Phoenix Tears, I Forgot' 
Voldemort. Give the woman a break (not you, Cindy, I'm addressing the critics 
of your imaginative theory). If the boss is so incompetant, how are the Evil 
Underlings supposed to do better?
Then again we all know now how busy dear Flo was at Hogwarts. Pay attention 
in Charms? She was probably too involved arranging secret assignations behind 
the greenhouses.

                ****************************************************
Cindy again, on Flitwick:
>OK.  Now I think I am starting to get Edge.  I understand Edge 
>because Flitwick apparently has no Edge *at all*.  It's all smooth 
>round corners with Flitwick, if there are any corners at all.  The 
>man is *too* perfect.  Even George and Steady State would be 
>powerless to construct a convincing backstory for Flitwick.  There's 
>just nothing there.  Are we supposed to envy perfection?  Where's 
>the fun in that?  ::heavy sigh::

Eloise:
Cindy? You got 'Flitwick' and 'backstory' into the same sentence?
Yep, nothing doing there. He's so round and spherical he bounces.
Beyond 'Ah, look at the cute little wizard' and a maternal desire to pick him 
up when he's been accidentally sent flying off round his classroom again, he 
does nothing for me whatsoever.
But then, he was a duelling champion. I suppose he must have had *some* edge 
about him once, but it seems to have rubbed off.

                   *****************************************
David:

>When Harry got cross with his aunt at the beginning of POA, he broke her 
glass, >then blew her up.  Later, in GOF, when Snape cracks his notorious 'I 
see no >difference' remark, (to demonstrate to any vampires present that he 
is not toothist), >Harry imagines all sorts of horrible things happening to 
Snape - but they don't.

>I wonder if Snape was using all his magical powers at that time to resist 
Harry's >anger, and is in fact *deliberately* winding him up, so that, in due 
course, Harry >can do something spectacular, with or without his wand, when 
made sufficiently >angry.

Eloise:
There's the obvious difference that Aunt Marge is a muggle and Snape a pretty 
powerful wizard.
However, there are of course a lot of part-trained juvenile wizards with 
mischievous minds and raging hormones roaming around the school. Lots of 
angst and anger and imagined revenges going on. It strikes me that there 
should be quite a lot of accidental magic happening. Maybe one of Hogwarts' 
protective charms protects against magical accidents of this sort. Someone 
will of now, of course, provide an example to prove me wrong!

                           *****************************************
On the subject or Hagrid's letter and the use of 'us'. GulPlum says,

>I'd not look for any special meaning in Hagrid's phrase.

>The "royal" we/us (ie using first person plural when referring to 
>oneself) is fairly common usage in several parts of the UK, 
>mainly "oop norf" (Lancashire/Yorkshire). His speech patterns in the 
>books made Hagrid appear (to me at least) as a Northerner, rather 
>than Cornish (as portrayed by Robbie Coltrane in the movie), though 
>Cornish certainly makes sense as well. 

Eloise:
I agree, in essence, although I believe JKR stated that Hagrid came from the 
West Country, like her. (This IIRC, was on an interview with children on the  
BBC). JKR herself, IIRC comes from near Bristol, so not the deep south-west, 
but more Somerset.
By the way, I think the 'f' sbstitution for 'th' is actually a *southern* 
trait (coming from Cheshire, which is either northern or midlands, depending 
on your viewpoint, but my accent used to be northern, my mother's certainly 
was, and there were no 'f'  substitutes there).
But then, my husband insisted on reading the character to my daughter with a 
Scottish accent on account of knowing that Robbie Coltrane was going to play 
the part!

                 *******************************************************
Cindy . Again!

>"Like father, like son, Potter!  I have just saved your neck; you 
>should be thanking me on bended knee!  You would have been well 
>served if he'd killed you!  You'd have died like your father, too 
>arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black."

>I hope this isn't a dumb question, but are we all agreed that this 
>means that Snape saved James Potter's life and Snape is miffed that 
>James never appreciated it?  Does it mean that Snape gave James 
>information that Black was a spy, but James disregarded it?  Am I 
>reading this wrong or something?

Eloise
My reading is that Snape *attempted* to save James' life and one of the 
things he curses his memory for was that, through James' own pig-headedness, 
he *failed*.

I think we all agree that Snape was probably the one who warned, directly or 
indirectly, the Potters that Voldy was after them. (Incidentally, I 
personally think that it's unlikely they had any personal contact over this. 
I think Dumbledore was the only one who knew about Snape's activities. Would 
James have listened to Snape's advice anyway? I doubt it.)

This passage certainly implies that James was warned not to trust 
Sirius...but then we know that Dumbledore did that. Not so much of 'You can't 
trust that man who tried to feed Snape to a werewolf', as ''There's a leak in 
this organisation. It would be much the best thing if you let *me* be your 
secret-keeper.'
*But*, 'James was too arrogant to believe he might be mistaken in Black'. And 
Snape's right, really, although not exactly as he means. James values Sirius' 
advice over Dumbledore's, takes Peter as secret keeper, and 'Avada Kedavra', 
he's dead.

So....Snape warns him, which *should* save his life, but James' actions 
thwart the attempt.
Now that's the sort of thing that would really piss Snape off. He's tries to 
do something he really didn't want to do, because he hates the man's guts and 
it would serve him jolly well right if Voldy *did* get him, and he's 
*failed*. People like Snape don't like failure. Makes them very cross. 
*That's* why he's miffed. James made him fail. He got one over on him and now 
he's dead, so Snape can't get his own back.
And of course, knowing the truth won't make it any better.

Eloise. Putting off working on that essay.




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