Hermione and Femininity

[selah_1977]

No: HPFGUIDX 32856

Discussion of my favorite character never fails to bring me out of 
lurkdom...

--- In HPforGrownups at y... Megan wrote:
 Unless...as evidenced so far in HP, Hermione tends to lean towards
> less-feminine.  She also strikes me as a very private person.  I can
> easily see her as keeping any sort of fancying completely to herself
> until it's so strong she can't bear not to tell anyone.  Then, and
> only then, she would tell the very, very select few people she knows
> she can absolutely trust with this morsel of information (in this
> case, I would assume Ginny).  I can speak of this from experience. 
> More on this below.

I both agree and disagree with the above.  You are right when you say 
that Hermione is a private person.  If there's one thing we know 
about Hermione's character, it is that she knows how and when to keep 
her own counsel.  Consider the Time-Turner incident.  Consider Krum-
as-Yule-Ball-escort.  Consider the fact that she knows about Sirius 
and quite a lot of other Harry-business.  Consider the fact that 
she's a good observer of character--Sirius noted this in GoF, and she 
was the one who psychoanalyzed Ron's behavior for Harry's benefit 
post-Goblet champion selection.  She's proven that she can keep her 
mouth shut when it counts, which makes her like gold in her 
friendship with the boys as many aspects of Harry's quest/the main 
plot hinge upon this.  (One wonders if Ginny has this same quality... 
I am curious.)

Our opinions differ when it comes to Hermione's femininity.  When I 
first entered the fandom a year and a half ago, I incited a flame 
skirmish on another grown-up Harry Potter list for stating that 
Hermione was "all girl".  I don't care if some think that's an anti-
feminist statement, she is just as feminine in her own way as 
Lavender and Parvati are, and as Ginny (in the very limited glimpses 
we get of her) is.  That's not a feminine vs. non-feminine thing; 
it's a personality thing.  She is not portrayed as a tomboy or as an 
asexual nerd.  She's just a smart girl.  That's all.


> As commented above, Hermione would definitely only share her 
feelings with those she can absolutely trust *and* those which could
> potentially help her situation.  She could also (as gross as Ginny
> would find it) be asking Ginny for advice for approaching her 
brother, but somehow I can't picture Hermione asking for advice.  
Come to think of it, I can't really picture Hermione fancying *ANY* 
one at this point in HP.  I think JKR would have to establish some 
more female aspects and dimensions to Hermione before we go to the 
crucial step of those first /real/ stirrings of a first true, strong, 
deep like for someone.
> 

We've established the fact that Hermione is a pretty deep character, 
keeping a lot to herself.  As of the end of GoF I could make the case 
that at least three teenage guys are at least mildly interested in 
her--Krum, Ron, and Neville.  Girls at that age are notorious for 
being far ahead of the boys when it comes to things like that.  I 
think she recognizes, as real-life girls and women in her position 
do, that she has some choices... and she is keeping her own counsel 
for the time being.  I think JKR has done an excellent job at 
characterizing Hermione.  She doesn't seem unfeminine in the least to 
me.

I can't see Hermione going to Ginny for advice.  I see any Hermione-
Ginny friendship being the other way around, with Hermione as an 
older sister and advisor figure to Ginny, who not only is a bit 
younger, but with the exception of the Riddle's diary incident has 
not had the depth and diversity of experiences that Hermione's had.  
Unless JKR shows us something differently in the future, of course.


> Hermione essentially makes a huge character jump (in this 
department) during two chapters in GoF during the Yule Ball.  She has 
essentially shown no signs of real mature feelings for a guy thus 
far.  I really see Krum as more of still borderline fling.  She 
wanted to go to the Yule Ball, another definite step for Hermione's 
character, and when Krum starts paying attention to her she ups her 
friendly feelings (if even those) to a more romantic touch to justify 
to herself going with him.  I don't think she truly feels for him 
like a typical teenage girl with that *true* crush (not just flighty 
fancy).
> 


Two things here.  First, I would ask which character in their year 
*has* shown any "mature" feelings in a romantic sense.  Even Ron's 
feelings for her are embryonic, obvious though they may be.  Harry's 
feelings towards Cho aren't matured... it's a lot of stomach twisting 
and reddening, but as far as we can tell he hasn't gotten beyond or 
even to the kissing/cuddling phase of his imagination.  And for all 
their giggling, Lav and Parvati don't seem all that worldly-wise in 
that department.  They're all just kids, and for all her book smarts, 
so is Hermione.

Next, I agree that it's clear Hermione doesn't have a crush on Krum 
that we know of.  However, what's a typical teenage girl crush 
supposed to feel like?  Many of the teens I knew when I was a teen, 
my teenage sister, and the teens I teach now like to engage in long 
phone conversations about absolutely nothing.  Listening to each 
other breathe.  Giggling.  "Are you asleep yet?"  "No."  I confess 
that was never my style.  I've always been more serious.  I was into 
guys who could talk to me about Serious Matters... the silly stuff 
had to come much, much later.  I met my high school boyfriend at a 
debate conference, and we were on opposing sides.  I wasn't giggly.  
He appreciated that.

I had other crushes, but the guys in question never knew about them.  
Unless I told my three-years-younger sister (and I didn't always), I 
kept it all to myself.  The guy who I liked from age 12 to age 15 
went to the same middle school *and* college as I did and to this day 
he doesn't know about my crush, my longings, how I'd lay awake at 
night imagining him and me together.  Even now if I'm interested in a 
guy, I don't rush into things headlong.  I sit and rationalize and 
weigh and analyze and think.

Now, that's not Hermione, that's only me... but I just had to show 
how there's no such thing as the typical.  Hermione may never develop 
along the lines of other girls and she could still enjoy a healthy 
romantic life and dating relationships.  I certainly don't regret not 
having had 50 million two-week relationships and spending half of my 
teen years with my ear glued to the phone!


> I can really understand with Ron's sudden enlightenment that 
Hermione is a "girl", because we as readers have seen very little to 
attribute to her feminimity.  A future relationship with Ginny would 
be a great step to establishing a serious "crush" (if JKR chooses 
this path) for Hermione in the future. 
> 

Oh, come now... give JKR more credit!  Hermione herself would be hurt 
if she heard that statement.  She's been a girl since book one.  
Ron's noticing that she was "a girl" offends her but I'm starting to 
think that it's a testament to her value in the Trio.  Both Harry nor 
Ron know prior to mid-GoF that Hermione is a girl, but neither of 
them care because she *isn't* a girl (category) she is their best 
friend.

I hope that Hermione and Ginny's friendship develops for its own 
sake, not because of crushes or boys.  And I think it will.


Tabouli wrote in her excellent essay:
> >   OTOH, the plot is even *thicker* if Hermione fancies Harry!!  
Hoo hoo hoo. 

*smacks forehead*  What'd you think we've been trying to *tell* you 
guys for the past year or more?  ;-)

Megan again:
> Yeah, I can't see Hermione owning up to feelings for Harry.  She 
> wouldn't want to admit it to Ginny since Ginny so clearly does have 
> > feelings for Harry & would feel disadvantaged (and perhaps alot 
less likely to be friends with Hermione if she felt she was competing 
in the romance field with her.  As Tabouli said so well, Hermione 
might well need this female companionship that she hasn't been able 
to achieve with Parvarti, Lavender or seemingly any other girl at 
Hogwarts that we're aware of).  She wouldn't want to jeopardize her 
seemingly only female friendship .... I can see that.  That's one 
more reason that Hermione's feelings are so ambiguous & open to more 
than one spin.  If she's concerned about losing another female friend 
(maybe her *only* female friend) AND both her other best friends 
(Harry & Ron), she'd for sure keep her own counsel.
> 


I think it all depends upon where JKR wants to go with the story.  I 
think impending R/H with possible H/G developing in the future would 
make for a nice and neat romantic-comedic subplot to the darker tone 
of the last three books.

One of the many reason why some of us like FITD, H/H, or both is 
because it tosses a Giant Monkey Wrench into the subplot and makes 
everything not quite so comfortable.  Any of the many shades of more-
than-friendship H/H raises the stakes.  Sure, there'll be stakes-
raising in other arenas of the plot too, but one of the things Harry 
can count on is his friendship with Ron and Hermione.  Harry 
treasures Ron's friendship a great deal, and learned just how much he 
did when he lost it for a short time in GoF.  So far, he's not had to 
worry about that on the Hermione front... she's been constant, albeit 
petrified in CoS, shunned for parts of PS/SS and PoA, and consumed 
with S.P.E.W. research in GoF.  But when the chips are down, she's 
always there.

Harry takes her for granted, because she's been pretty much the same 
constant variable in his life from mid-PS/SS until the end of GoF.  
But anything could change that.  Ron dating her would change that.  
Hermione avoiding him for whatever reason would change that.  Her 
death, kidnapping, or otherwise becoming a casualty could change 
that.  We've had Hermione-Ron conflict, we've had Harry-Ron conflict, 
but aside from the Firebolt incident in PoA we've had absolutely no 
Harry-Hermione conflict, and even in that case Ron was mad at her too.

We'll just have to see what happens next.

> She may also be slightly embarrassed if she fancies Harry.  Since
> Hermione has had little femal counsel and on outwards appearances
> looks a little behind in that "department", she could feel guilty
> about seeing one of her best friends as "something else".  This 
would also causes her not to admit to anyone her true feelings.  From 
a girl's perspective, admitting "crushes" and similar things outloud 
is just some kind of weird, ultimate, and scarily final sort of
> conviction--like once you actually admit to someone, it's permenant
> and you get to the oh-so-scary part of "is it returned?".  I can't
> really put it in words, but I know some females out there might know
> what I'm saying.


I do know what you're saying, Megan.  And I totally understand and 
agree.  I know you don't like the idea of H/H, but I am one of those 
very annoying people who believes that Hermione just may have a 
tamped-down crush on Harry which either 1) she'll get over soon or 2) 
someone will figure out.  

If it's the second scenario, let's just hope that someone isn't Ron.  
*That* would be quite the sticky situation indeed, and at a time when 
things will be sticky enough in the wizarding world.

--Ebony AKA AngieJ