[HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP R/H, H/H

[Penny & Bryce]

No: HPFGUIDX 34093

Hi --

Various replies  --

jchutney wrote:

> 
Honestly, I didn't mean to
> offend. I think I betray my own prejudices as an English major. There
> are so many ways to "read" text, etc.  Obviously, the more
> complicated the material, the more ways to read the text - hence, the
> 20,000 ways to view Hamlet.

I'm a recovering English major too ... I love that there can be such 
varied interpretations too.  It's a real tribute to JKR's writing 
ability, yes?

> I cannot prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that JKR is setting up H/R or
> that H likes R.  However, IMO, we can all see that by a preponderance
> of evidence, that this more likely than not. (If I were to approach
> it mathematically I'd say that even though it's not 100%, it's
> maybe 60% likely to be true.)

Er ... well, we can't *all* see that a preponderance of evidence shows 
R/H.  In fact, my view of the preponderance of the evidence is exactly 
the opposite.  Surprise, surprise!  I wouldn't begin to quantify 
mathematically what the odds are that JKR would or would not take any 
particular plot direction myself.  All bets are off IMHO.

  So, when discussing the topic with
> H/Hers, I speculate as to the motivations, etc that lead someone to
> an alternate view.

Ah, but we don't necessarily think we are taking the "alternate" or 
underdog view.  :--)  I'm not sure what fandom numbers would show in 
terms of how those who ship break down percentage wise.  It would be 
interesting to know, but I don't think we H/H'ers are drastically in the 
minority, if at all.

Ama said:

> I'm not saying Hermione should become a floozy because she's too
> brilliant, but in some ways I think her obsession with schoolwork is
> to compensate for her insecurity about other facets of her
> character.  Ron sees right through her when she's being intolerably
> know-it-all, or gets her to relax when she's hyperventilating, I
> think there's evidence in the canon, especially when they're yelling
> at each other over homework. 

Canon examples?  I can think of one H/H example off-hand myself 
actually.  PoA -- the chapter where Harry sneaks into Hogsmead -- 
Hermione is fussing about how he should turn in the Map & go back to 
school, etc.  Harry grins at her & says, "You're not going to turn me in 
are you?"  She smiles sheepishly & says, "Well, of course not, but 
really Harry" (I'm being lazy & paraphrasing).

Point is: both boys are capable of helping Hermione loosen up.  Ron 
hasn't got a monopoly on that.  OTOH, I can't recall any R/H examples 
from canon of this.

Kimberly said:

> I think we'd all agree that people have the capacity to change their
> minds, but that's not at all relevant to the point at hand, which is
> whether or not Hermione meant what she said *at the time that she
> made the statement*. 

One of my points is that she might not have known, until after-the-fact, 
that Ron had romantic interest in her.  We the readers have a growing 
sense of this, but Hermione might not have.  I think after the Ball she 
most certainly was aware of it ... but *was* she aware at the time of 
the fight?  Maybe; maybe not.

One of my other points is that her statement is not necessarily an 
invitation to ask her out and is definitely not an indication that she'd 
accept if he did.  I'm not the only one to mention this so I don't think 
I'm totally out in left field.

> I have too high of an opinion of her kindness *and* her self-
> possession (she keeps her cool when she's facing death by poison or
> fire in PS/SS; I don't think it's deserted her here) to think that
> even in the heat of the moment she would knowingly say something that
> could have no other result than to hurt a friend, even if he has been
> hurtful to her.

Ah, c'mon.  We all lose our cool now & again.  Hermione's no saint.

But, be that as it may, my point is that she's not being intentionally 
cruel.  I do not think that she was thinking to herself: "I'll show him! 
  I know he likes me so I'll tell him to ask me out, even though there's 
not a chance in this world I'd date *him*!"  Of course not.  People 
don't think like that in the middle of an argument.  She's hurt & angry 
though & what she's saying to him, IMO, is: "Look, if you don't like it 
that I went to a dance with a visiting student, you should have asked me 
yourself first, not as a last resort.  You have no right to be judging 
who I went with."

I had said:

>> It also might not have been clear to
>> her what the real reason was (Ron's interest in her) until after
> her
>> head had cleared after their argument.  Maybe she went back up to
> her
>> room and thought "Oh, dear.  Oh, no."  :::shrugs::: It's possible.

Kimberly responded with:

> 
> This is possible, but unlikely in light of Harry's thought-comment at
> the end of the fight, and it completely contradicts your own previous
> statement that you were sure that she *did* know how he feels. I buy
> it as possible, but clearly neither of us believes it to be true.

Just because Harry's figured it out doesn't mean Hermione has.  It also 
doesn't contradict my previous statement because what I said was I'm 
sure she *does* know how Ron feels (i.e., by the end of GoF, she 
certainly does know how Ron feels, and after their fight, my guess is 
that she knows).  But, before or *during* the fight, did she know? 
Maybe or maybe not.

Penny
(who will definitely shut up on this topic for now because she'll be out 
of town for awhile)