[HPforGrownups] Re: Justice, Wisdom, Trials, Harry, Dumbledore and Snape

[Edblanning at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 38529

Cindy, commenting on Porphyria's essay on parallels between HP and the book 
of Job:

> But the parallel might not be perfect, because Snape's loyalty is 
> far from perfect.  In PoA, Snape openly questions Dumbledore's trust 
> of Lupin, eventually disobeying Dumbledore's instruction that 
> Lupin's werewolf status remain confidential.  In GoF, Snape may have 
> played a role in allowing a dementor in the castle, despite 
> Dumbledore's express wishes.  

Eloise:

Granted, my dictionary defines a parallel as a precise copy, analogy, etc, 
but I am not sure that this is exactly what we are talking about here.  The 
fact that the analogy may not be precise in every detail does not take away 
from the fact that there are some spookily close parallels between Snape and 
the satan. Close enough that I feel Porphyria may have uncovered his 
inspiration, or if not, that JKR had similar intentions in creating him as 
the writer of Job had in using the satan to be the litmus test of Job's 
character, loyalty, faith etc.

As a tool for exploring the characters involved, moreover, we may find any 
differences there are all the more illuminating.

Cindy:
> This may be an area in which the parallel between the satan of Job 
> and Snape begins to break down just a bit.  As Porphyria 
> explains, "satan remains completely loyal and obedient to God" 
> and "never exceeds [God's] instructions." But can the same be said 
> for Snape?  Does Snape exceed Dumbledore's directives out of malice 
> or pursuit of his own agenda?  Well, it appears so.  Even if we 
> attribute laudable motives to Snape's actions in revealing Lupin's 
> condition, the fact remains that this was done in violation of 
> Dumbledore's express directive.  The satan of Job, of course, never 
> 

Eloise:
I personally do not question Snape's loyalty. I think there are occasions 
when he acts misguidedly, perhaps out of too much loyalty. On the occasions 
when he oversteps the mark, we could argue that from his POV, he is 
protecting Dumbledore, doing the things which Dumbledore should do, if he 
weren't so damn decent. (Or we could just argue that he's a vindictive SOB, 
but I choose to lay that aside for the purpose of this argument, before 
someone tries to sidetrack.)

> 
> Porphyria:
> 
> >"The frequency with which Snape takes the role of prosecuting 
> >attorney points up both his importance within the school and his 
> >function within the text. His interactions with Harry often figure 
> >as courtroom scenes, and his diction is filled with forensic 
> >allusions."
> 
> <snip>
> So a question:  If Snape is functioning as satan (specifically 
> defined as the satan in the story of Job), what is the *purpose* of 
> Snape's prosecutorial role?  Surely the satan in Job was not acting 
> to protect Job, although Snape occasionally appears to be motivated 
> by a desire to protect Harry.  Conversely, Snape's activities do not 
> seem calculated to test Harry's loyalty or allegiance, which seems 
> to be the mission of satan in the story of Job.  
> 
> What, then, is Snape hoping to accomplish, consistent with the idea 
> 

Eloise:
'The satan' indicates a role, not a person. Therefore, Snape does not 
*always* have to be acting in that role. It is not inconsistent that Snape 
may sometimes take on another role.

The satan persecuted Job, in an effort to break him to the point where his 
loyalty to God would be revealed to be a sham dependent on his well-being . 
The outcome is that Job's faithfulness is proved, not only to everyone else 
but to Job himself. Job goes through a refining process. Snape, some of us 
think, turned to the Dark side because he too was the victim of apparently 
unfair treatment at the hands of the 'Light' side, because its morality 
seemed bankrupt. He failed the test that Harry is being put through. If Harry 
is to be the kind of hero he is destined to be, then he must be able to 
remain loyal to the Light side whatever. Dumbledore's initial concern for 
Harry was to protect him from having his head turned by constant adulation 
from an early age. Job was in a position where prosperity made it easy for 
him to praise God without much thought. God agreed to Job being taken down a 
peg or two (to put it mildly) to test his integrity. Without Snape, Harry's 
life at Hogwarts could easily be full of the adulation from which Dumbledore 
initially protected him. Snape's persecution is part of the refining process 
which helps Harry to know himself, his ideals, his goals more fully.

> 
> Porphyria:
> 
> >"Here we can also see how the satan has the duties a divine 
> >prosecuting attorney; he states the opposing case and casts 
> >aspersions on the hero, while God's argues for the defense."
> 
> Yes, that makes sense.  But if Snape fulfills the role of the satan, 
> then who in HP fulfills God's role, the role of arguing for Harry's 
> defense?
> 
> Oddly, it often seems to be various Hogwarts teachers.  <snip>
> 
> Ironically, it seems that Dumbledore is almost neutral when Harry is 
> being accused, which seems to suggest that Dumbledore's role is not 
> God's role of arguing for the defense.  <snip> As we see teachers 
> (McGonagall, in 
> particular) rather than Dumbledore mount vigorous defenses of Harry, 
> is it fair to say that the various teachers act in the role of God 
> to Snape's satan?
> 
> Further, if the various teachers seem to fulfill the role of God 
> more completely than Dumbledore, then what role, if any, does 
> Dumbledore play?  Is he part of the composite of characters who 
> fulfill a small part of the role of God to oppose Snape's satan, or 
> 

Eloise:
The actual encounters between God and the satan take up quite a small part of 
the Book of Job. God doesn't argue very much, more just states the case that 
Job is blameless.
I have said in other posts that I do feel that Dumbledore is quite God-like 
and that this is manifested exactly in the difficult questions he makes us 
ask - the conundrum of evil that Porphyria addresses in the first part of her 
essay.

Cindy:
> <snip>

Yes, it is true that Snape is frequently present at pivotal moments,
> as Porphyria points out.  But he is curiously absent at other 
> moments -- moments when one would expect Dumbledore's inner circle  
> to be accounted for.  Significantly, Snape is not present when 
> Dumbledore makes his first important decision about Harry's future --
> when Harry is left with the Dursleys.  Snape is also inexplicably 
> absent during all three of the tasks in GoF.  In fact, Hagrid (who 
> is not a fully qualified wizard) is selected to monitor the third 
> task instead of Snape, despite Dumbledore's apparent concern about 
> Harry's safety and the meaning of several mysterious events 
> throughout the school year.  Can Snape be more than a prowling 
> nuisance if Dumbledore does not seek his counsel during Dumbledore's 
> 

Eloise:
We don't know what precisely what status Snape had with Dumbledore at the 
time of James and Lily's deaths. Yes, we think he was a trusted spy. But 
under the circumstances, I would expect he may well have had other things to 
do, things which Hagrid, for instance, could not accomplish. His position in 
the organisation may also (I think probably) not have been known to others 
such as McGonagall and Hagrid and perhaps then was not exactly the time to 
let the cat out of the bag.

Hagrid is one of those who monitors the third task because of the beasts in 
the maze, or so I have always thought. Similarly, Moody, McGonagall and 
Flitwick were on patrol because of their specialist skills, which could aid a 
student in trouble. Snape notably *is* present with Dumbledore and McGonagall 
when they rescue Harry from Moody/Crouch.

Cindy:
> 
> One final question about the parallel between Snape and the satan.  
> I assume that the satan in the story of Job is the supreme adversary 
> to God, that there is no entity more powerful than the satan other 
> than God.  I think it is clear in HP, however, that Snape is far 
> from the most powerful wizard in the books.  I assume Voldemort is 
> more powerful, and it is beyond dispute that Snape is quite 
> intimidated by Moody.  Even Dumbledore is likely more powerful.  


Eloise:
Here, I think three different concepts are in danger of getting confused. 
First we have the Hebrew satan (with article), the adversary, whom we are 
considering here; then there is (no article) Satan, the Christianisation of 
the above who merges into the Devil, a Christian concept embodying pure evil 
and regarded as the supreme enemy. The latter's role, I would suggest, is 
taken by Voldemort. The satan has much more in common with what we might term 
'devil's advocate' than with the Devil himself.

A thought that intrigues me is whether we will see Snape take on any more of 
the satan's role. The satan, after all, is the character who tempts Christ in 
the wilderness, another refining process in which Christ's resolution is 
tested and strengthened. Might Snape later be the agent of an attempt to make 
Harry stray from his path?

Eloise




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