Dishwasher!Dumbledore & Assassin!Snape

[abigailnus]

No: HPFGUIDX 46993

[Note: This post was written several hours ago and could not 
beposted due to internet connection issues.  I see that several 
newposts on Assassin!Snape in it's various forms have since 
appeared,so if any of them cover the issues raised in this post 
I apologize.]

Abigail has done it again.  There she was, firing off obscure 
comments on a relatively sedate subject from the safety of her 
RL home, when all of a sudden, she was whisked off to  The Pink 
Flamingo Bar!  The place is a mess.  George and his sister Diana 
are behind the bar, looking decidedly wilted as they struggle to 
fill everyone's drink orders.  Avery is crouching in the corner, 
huddled into a fetal position and singing nursery rhymes to himself 
in a soft voice.  Cindy, Charis Julia and Cabaret!Snape are on a 
table, singing a Bob Fosse medley.  A group of excited TBAY 
newbies is waving Yellow Flags willy-nilly.  In a corner booth, 
Assassin!Snape, Saboteur!Snape, SoulSucked!Snape and 
TimeTurner!Snape are locked in conversation, their dark heads 
bent over a hit list that is getting longer by the minute.

Of course, Abigail has only a few brain cells with which to notice 
all this commotion, because right now her attention is almost 
completely devoted to the large, furry creature currently
 occupying most of her field of vision.  It seemed pretty easy to 
exchange volleys with Grey Wolf in RL, but here in TBAY... Well, 
let's just say there's a teeth issue.

"I find," Grey Wolf rumbles, "that your suggestion that believing 
in MAGIC DISHWASHER is somehow not playing fair is grounded 
less in logic and more in spite."

Abigail frowns.  "I'm sorry if anything I said sounded spitefull," she 
says, "it certainly wasn't meant that way.  But unfortunately, I do 
stand by my original statement.  Unless I've misconstrued your 
own words, Grey Wolf?"

"My own words?"  Grey Wolf seems surprised, but not overly 
upset, so Abigail soldiers on.  She pulls from her backpack a dusty 
tome and blows on it so that the insciption "Post #45165" becomes 
barely legible.  From her coat pocket she removes a pair of 
pince-nez, and begins to read:

>Also, staying far from the theory itself, I have to point out that 
books can be read in several different levels by different people. You 
don't have to understand all the levels to like or understand the book 
(or at least that's what my literature teacher used to say to me). So, 
children can read the adventures of Harry Potter while the adults read 
the subtle interactions between the adult characters (read the "deep" 
discussions on this list for a taste of that). If MAGIC DISHWASHER 
proves to be true (objective number 2, as Pip said), it won't be 
spelled out as such: it will have been working in the background, and 
giving the books realism. But in the end, Harry will have beaten 
Voldemort and you won't really have to understand how he got there to 
enjoy it.>

"Actually, that's not the source I was hoping to find."  Abigail says 
sadly, "I went through quite a few old posts, because I could quite 
clearly remember you, Grey Wolf, claiming that, even if the books 
were to end without MAGIC DISHWASHER being corroborated, you 
wouldn't consider the theory scrapped.  Maybe that particular post 
was never written and exists only in my fevered imagination, but I 
think the post I found comes to very nearly the same conclusion.  And 
that's sort of where I dropped off the bandwagon.  I have my 
problems with MD, but until I read this post I thought it was a theory 
like any other - subject to the whims of Hurricane Jo.  I mean, there 
I am on the Imperius!Arthur trimaran, and I could just as easily say 
that if at no point does Arthur stand up and say "I, Arthur Weasly, 
have never been a victim of the Imperius curse" then the theory 
is sound and true.  In fact, I could probably work around Arthur 
actually getting up and saying something like that - I could say that 
he was lying.  But that is, in my opinion, not playing fair - in order for =

Imperius!Arthur to survive, there actually has to be unmitigated 
corroboration of it in canon." 

"Now, Grey Wolf, you claim that MD is just as subject to the ravages 
of Hurricane Jo as the rest of the ships out on the bay, which means 
that I have either misread this statement, or you've changed your 
mind since you wrote it, and either way I apologize.  In fact, I'd be 
quite pleased to discover that I am wrong - I may not agree with 
MAGIC DISHWASHER, but I enjoy arguing against it and feeling that 
the battle is worth fighting."

Grey Wolf is about to reply when the oak doors of The Pink Flamingo 
Bar swing wide as if blown open by a gust of wind. The full moon rides 
out from the clouds above the storm-wracked bay just long enough to 
cast a giant shadow into the room. From far away comes a drawn out 
shuddering howl, and the faint churning of a magical kitchen appliance. 
A cloaked figure enters—

"Oh look, it's Pip!Squeak!" Says Abigail brightly.  Of course, what she's 
actually thinking is, Help!  She looks for an easy avenue of escape as 
Pip!Squeak... erm... persuades George to make her a cup of tea, but 
there are very few directions that one can move in when faced with 
a giant wolf.

Her tea secured, Pip!Squeak looks around cheerfully.

"Anyone mention a DISHWASHER three times? Because I'm here!"

Abigail rather shakily raises her hand. "Me. It was me who mentioned 
DISHWASHER. I think it was more times than three, though
"

"Oh, good, Abigail.  I'm quite glad that you're here."  Pip!Squeak doesn't =

seem very glad, though, or at least not the kind of gladness that Abigail 
would like to see directed at her.  "I came to discuss your following asser=
tion."  
She pulls out a portable recorder and presses a button, and Abigail's 
voice fills the room.
 
> "the fact that MD might strenghen Assassin!Snape - and I'm a bit  
> surprised to see that no one from the Safe House has showed up at 
> the TBAY tavern to back Cindy up -."
> 

"DISHWASHER would support Assassin!Snape, would it?" says Pipsqueak, 
with a dangerous softness to her voice.
 
"Well, yes." Said Abigail, rather blankly, because what she's actually 
thinking is, Is that what I really sound like?. "I think I have a firm gras=
p 
of MAGIC DISHWASHER."
 
"Not as firm as she thinks, if you ask me" says the Wolf.  Abigail gives 
him a surly look.

"Indeed." Says the Pipsqueak. She settles herself firmly on the barstool, 
takes a swig of the tea, then pauses.  Then she launches into a long 
and very interesting summary of Dishwasher!Dumbledore and 
Dishwasher!Snape's actions in the first four books which should satisfy 
any MD novice, at least until Grey Wolf completes his magnum opus 
(which, since her mastery of the subject has been called into question, 
Abigail would now quite like to read).  Once she's done, she exchanges 
a few shouted comments with Cindy, including a rather Bent suggestion 
about Snape killing Dumbledore.  So it takes her a few minutes to notice 
that Abigail is not, as she should be, gazing at her in rapt attention, but=
 
in fact standing at the bar, trying to cadge a free drink off George.

"Oh, come on."  She's saying.  "You're my favorite Snapetheory!"  
Noticing the the sudden silence, she turns back to Pip!Squeak.  "Are 
you done, then?"

"Am I done?"  Pip!Squeak asks, shocked.  "Weren't you even listening?"

"I was listening."  Abigail nods.  "But I'm not sure you were.  Or rather, =

I'm not sure that you understood my meaning when I suggested that 
Assassin!Snape is strenghened by MAGIC DISHWASHER.  I think you 
thought I was suggesting that Dishwasher!Dumbledore engages in 
morally questionable behaviour, and that he would therefore be in 
favor of sacrificing Karkarof to further his goals.  I suppose I should 
have anticipated that, because usually on this group, when someone 
attaches a Dishwasher to anyone, it's meant to signal moral depravity
 - which is a pity, because I don't think immorality is the central 
characteristic of Dishwasher!Dumbledore."

"You don't?"  Pip!Squeak and Grey Wolf ask in unison.

"No.  If you'll look back at my original fireman analogy, I never 
suggested that the fireman is wrong.  The house is most certainly 
going to burn down - it has to be prematurely dealt with.  I was 
questioning the logic of his assumptions, wondering if there wasn't 
some way to ensure that the burn be more controlled.  Basically, 
if you'll allow me to drop off the analogy, my problem with 
Dishwasher!Dumbledore is one of logistics - there are simply too 
many things in his master plan that can and do go wrong - Harry's 
escape from the graveyard is a matter of sheer luck no matter how 
you look at it.  But that,"  Abigail pauses for breath, "is not what I 
came here to discuss.  Looking back at MAGIC DISHWASHER, I think 
that there are two traits that can be firmly attached to 
Dishwasher!Dumbledore, and they are only tangentially related to 
morallity."

"First, Dishwasher!Dumbledore is a person who believes that the 
ends justify the means.  Whether those means have any restrictions 
on them is open to interpretation, but I think that the core of MD is 
based on this assumption.  This is the man who will allow Sirius Black 
to remain a wanted fugitive so that Peter Pettigrew can return to 
Voldemort, the man who will allow Harry to face a dangerous dark 
wizard (and whether or not Dumbldore know about the portkey 
switch, MD stipulates that he was trying to force Voldemort to use 
Harry's blood for a resurrection spell, which surely would necessitate 
Harry being in LV's presence at some point) in order to gain an 
advantage over that wizard.  We can sit here and argue all night 
about whether he is right to make these decisions, but that's not the 
point.  The point is the kind of person Dumbledore is."

"And the seond trait?"  Pip!Squeak asks, her tea forgotten on the bar.

Abigail gulps and soldiers on.  "The second point is that 
Dishwasher!Dumbledore is... a liar."

"You had better,"  Grey Wolf growls, "have some canon to back that 
up."  Pip!Squeak is too shocked to speak, she's just staring at Abigail, 
white-faced.  The bar has gone eerily silent.  The four Snapes in the 
corner booth (and the one dancing on the table) give Abigail four 
identical stunned expressions.  She digs even deeper into her backpack, 
and removes a dog-eared volume and her pince-nez.

"Philospher's Stone."  She announces.  "Ch. 17, The Man With Two 
Faces, this is Harry and Dumbledore's conversation in the hospital 
wing"

-------------------------

"'...Well, Voldemort's going to try other ways of coming back, isn't he?  
I mean, he hasn't gone, has he?'
'No, Harry, he has not.  He is still out there somewhere, perhaps 
looking for another body to share... not being truly alive, he cannot 
be killed. ... Nevertheless, Harry, while you may only have delayed his 
return to power, it will merely take someone else who is prepared to 
fight what seems a losing battle next time - and if he is delayed again, 
and again, why, he may never return to power.'
Harry nodded, but stopped quickly, because it made his head hurt.  
Then he said, 'Sir, there are some other things I'd like to know, if you 
can tell me... things I want to know the truth about... '
'The truth.'  Dumbledore sighed.  'It is a beautiful and terrible thing, 
and should therefore be treated with great caution.  However, I shall 
answer your questions unless I have a very good reason no to, in 
which case I beg you'll forgive me.  I shall not, of course, lie.'"

-------------------------

"But of course he just has."  Abigai raises her head and looks 
Pip!Squeak straight in the eye.  "Under MAGIC DISHWASHER, that 
is, because MD, as I understand, claims that Voldemort's attempt 
on the Philosopher's Stone was the warning bell in Dumbledore's ear, 
after which he began to lay the foundation for Voldemort's cotrolled 
reemergance at the end of GoF.  I've even seen DISHWASHER 
variants in which the Philosopher's Stone ordeal was orchestrated 
and controlled by Dumbledore.  And yet, here he is, musing to Harry 
about how, if we just bide our time, the menace may never reemerge."

"Surely you aren't suggesting."  Pip!Squeak cries.  "That Dumbledore 
tell and injured and traumatized 11 year-old his entire intricate plan!"

"No, I don't."  Replies Abigail calmly, "But I don't expect him to lie 
either.  There was no reason to volounteer that line about how 
Voldemort may never rise again, not even to comfort Harry.  And 
anyway, this is merely the most glaring instance I can think of for 
what seems like a series-long phenomenon.  Dumbledore presents 
a certain face to the multitude - the slightly daffy, morally staunch 
old man.  His deputy head, McGonogall, believes him 'too noble' to 
have fought Voldemort on his own level.  Throughout the series he 
teaches Harry, and the rest of the Hogwarts student body, lessons 
about charity, second chances, inclusiveness, and the value of a 
human life.  Under MAGIC DISHWASHER, however, it seems that all 
these lessons have an ulterior motive.  Dumbledore speaks to Harry 
about mercy when in fact he has far more prosaic reasons to keep 
Peter Pettigrew alive.  And of course, none of this deals with his 
many of lies of omission over the years.  What I'm saying is that, 
under MD, the Dumbledore that has been presented to us, and to 
Harry, doesn't really exist - the real Dumbledore is a far more human 
creature.  Which is not necessarily bad, by the way, but it does make 
him a liar."

"I believe this discussion had something to do with Assassin!Snape?"  
Pip!Squeak asks drily.

Abigail smiles.  "Yes, that did take rather a long time, didn't it?  And 
for such a simple point.  You assumed that when I characterized 
Dishwasher!Dumbledore as supportive of Assassin!Snape it was 
because A!S is an immoral proposition (and I'm not quite sure where 
I stand on that particular subject right now, but it's beside the point).  =

In fact, I was pointing out that, as a person who believes that the ends 
justify the means, and as someone who is not nearly so noble as he 
pretends to be, Dumbledore may very well be in support of Karkarof's 
murder, if it brought him closer to his goal - saving all those people in 
the burning building.  After all, Dumbledore has to have a next move, 
doesn't he?"

"MAGIC DISHWASHER doesn't seek to predict the future."  Grey Wolf 
remarks.  "It merely seeks to explain the back story behind the things 
we've already seen."

"Well, that's a problem, isn't it?"  Counters Abigail, a bit angrily. 
"Because if you leave things where they are right now, Dumbldore 
hasn't done the Wizarding World, or in fact the world in general any 
favors, has he?  Voldmort is back, more powerful than ever, facing 
an ignorant and apathetic community mostly unaware of his return, 
ready to bring the world to its knees (</TBAY> I read a beautiful 
quote in a review of "Die Another Day" this morning - "the world 
always has knees in Bond films" <TBAY>).  Dumbledore had better 
have a plan - he had better have had a plan when he first came up 
with the whole 'let's bring Voldy back on my terms' idea in the first 
place.  And if his actions in The Parting of the Ways are in 
furtherance of that plan - which they bloody well should be - then 
Snape's task, whatever it was, is part of it." 

The bar is quiet.  Grey Wolf and Pip!Squeak are giving Abigail strange 
looks.  To her surprise, she discovers that she's actually quite upset.  
She takes a deep breath.

"Because this isn't a game."  She says, quietly.  "Real people are 
going to die.  Good people.  People who might not have died if 
Dumbledore hadn't set the world on fire.  And sure, maybe 
those same people would have died anyway if Dumbledore had 
just bided his time, but maybe they would have lived long lives.  
And their blood is on Dumbledore's hands even if he isn't 
responsible for their deaths.  Dumbledore owes those people 
- all the Cedrics, Franks and Berthas out there, all those people 
who are going to make such great sacrifices even though they 
don't even know they're in the game - to see the thing through, 
to put the fire out.He doesn't have *the right* to develop delicate 
sensibilites just now."

Abigail pauses, and then says,  "Or are you really going to stand 
there and tell me that the Dumbledore who presumed to take the 
fate of his entire community in his hands, who did the math and 
decided that the lives that are going to be lost to his enemies are 
worth the untimate rewards, but who, when faced with the 
necessity of taking some lives himself, refuses to stain his clean 
hands even if it means endangering his mission - are you going to tell 
me that this is the *moral* Dumbledore?"

The silence in The Pink Flamingo Bar is deafening.  Abigail hasn't taken 
her eyes off Pip!Squeak's.  "Cindy?"  She calls.

"Yeah?"

"You can sign me up for Assassin!Snape, but only under MAGIC 
DISHWASHER."  She smiles at Pip!Squeak and Grey Wolf.  "So, any 
thoughts?"

Abigail
Who was surprised to discover how strongly she feels about this issue, 
and hopes she hasn't expressed herself *too* stridenlty.