Harry in the Order? (was: Re: Harry Has The Right To Know The Whole Truth)

[KathyK]

No: HPFGUIDX 75789

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" 
<dumbledore11214 at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "backstagemystic" 
<idcre at i...> 
> wrote:
> > Buttercup wrote:
> > >>4. Harry should be allowed membership into the Order
> > and be able to attend their meetings. After all, the
> > purposes of the organization is to stop Voldemort, and
> > only Harry can do that. <<
> > --------------
> > 
> > Harry is NOT emotionally mature enough to be part of the Order 
> > (especially now, as he's overwhelmed with anger, guilt and grief).
> > 
> > Plus, he has NOT mastered keeping Voldemort out of his mind.  
With 
> > Harry sitting there, one might as well hookup a remote cam and 
> > speaker to allow Voldie to eavesdrop on the meetings.
> > 
> > Harry has talent and a good and brave heart, but he still lacks 
> > crucial knowledge and wisdom, and those simply cannot be *handed* 
> to 
> > him by Dumbledore.  
> > 
> > Those will only come with time, experience (including hardships) 
> and 
> > maturity under Dumbledore's patient guidance...and he's slowly 
> > getting there, but he's not there yet.  
> > 
> > Right now he acts too rashly and impulsively, and does not truly 
> > think things through enough to consider the broader picture or 
long-
> > term consequences...he simply has not developed the scope.  
> > 
> > There are two scenes in OOP which are worth re-reading in regard 
to 
> > this.
> > 
> > The first is on pp 476-477 (Am hard cover), where Sirius has to 
> > prevent the equally emotional and rash Weasley twins from 
charging 
> > off to St Mungo's to visit their Dad after he was attacked.  
Sirius 
> > had to knock sense into the both of them, to get them to trust 
the 
> > adults handling the situation.  Here's a very relevant snippet:
> > 
> > [Sirius]:  "Your father knew what he was getting into, and he 
won't 
> > thank you for messing things up for the Order!" said Siruis 
angrily 
> > in his turn.  "This is how it is - this is why you're not in the 
> > Order - you don't understand - there are things worth dying for!"
> > 
> > When Sirius says " - you don't understand", he's NOT talking 
about 
> > information or knowledge the boys are lacking, he's talking about 
a 
> > deeper, mature and higher understanding (wisdom and common sense, 
> if 
> > you will) for which the two boys are too young to grasp.
> > 
> > The other relevant scene comes between Phineas and Harry (pp. 495-
6 
> > Am HC):
> > 
> > [Phineas]  "You know," said Phineas Nigellus, even more loudly 
than 
> > Harry, "this is precisely why I *loathed* being a teacher!  Young 
> > people are so infernally convinced that they are absolutely right 
> > about everything.  Has it not occurred to you, my poor puffed-up 
> > popinjay, that there might be an excellent reason why the 
> headmaster 
> > of Hogwarts is not confiding every tiny detail of his plans to 
> you?  
> > Have you never paused, while feeling hard-done-by, to note that 
> > following Dumbledore's orders has never yet led you into harm?  
> No.  
> > No, like all young people, you are quite sure that you alone feel 
> and 
> > think, you alone recognize danger, you alone are the only one 
> clever 
> > enough to realize what the Dark Lord may be planning..."
> > 
> > And contrary to some arguments, Harry WAS informed rather 
> > extensively, AND warned urgently about the need to take 
Occlumency 
> > seriously.
< giant snip of a great post> 
> > BM
> 
> 
> Your post was beatifully written, but allow me VERY strongly 
disagree 
> with some parts of it.
> 
> Yes, Harry may not be emotionally mature enough to be the part of 
the 
> Order, although I think that it only caused by him wanting revenge 
> for Sirius death and will end eventually.
> 
> NO, I don't think Harry was informed even remotely close to what he 
> should have been informed of.
> 
> I will try not to start my long rant about Dumbledore, because I 
may 
> not be able to stop. :o)
> 
> Snape  would not needed to give Harry hints of why he needs to 
study 
> Occlumency, if Dumbledore bothered to tell him in the benginning of 
> this year that Voldemort may try to trick him to go to MoM. I may 
> understand why he did not tell Harry earlier, but nothing in my 
mind 
> justifies not telling Harry at the beginning of the year.
> 
> Dumbledore told him at the end of the year anyway, so what is the 
> difference?
> 
> No matter what Pinneas told Harry, Dumbledore's stupidity caused 
hima 
> great deal of harm and  was mainly ( in my opinion, of course) 
cause 
> of Sirius' supposed death (DENIAL, DENIAL :o))
> 
> I absolutely agree with you though about Sirius' talk to twins, but 
> something tells me that all the young generation will mature very 
> quickly in book 6.
> 
> So, should Harry be in the Order? Yes, in my opinion,if he wants 
to, 
> even if he is not quite ready yet, because Dumbledore owes him that 
> much.
> 
> Alla

Harry should not be allowed in the Order simply because Dumbledore 
owes him.  While I agree that Dumbledore should have told Harry 
earlier what was going on, this mistake is no reason to endanger the 
rest of the Order.  Dumbledore should have told him the truth and he 
should have made *sure* Harry learned Occlumency from either Snape or 
himself.  Since he failed to to this, Harry should not be allowed in 
the Order until he learns how to block Voldemort from his mind 
properly.  Otherwise, Harry's presence jeopardizes the members and 
whatever plans they have in the works that Harry has knowledge of.  
I don't dispute that Dumbledore's made errors.  I don't dispute that 
Harry belongs in the Order.  But he cannot be allowed in until 
Voldemort no longer has access to Harry, no matter what Dumbledore 
has told or not told Harry.  It's too dangerous for everyone else.

KathyK