Time-Travel- why Harry *can* save himself (was: POA Dementor Kiss on Harry)

[severusbook4]

No: HPFGUIDX 78976

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" 
<talisman22457 at y...>
> wrote:
> 
> >  
> >  Laurasia: 
> > > Your premise that we are always stuck with a soul-sucked Harry 
> > unless  someone else saves him relies on one thing- that there 
has 
> > to be a `first time' that time occurs in which no-one has gone 
back 
> > in time. 
> > 
> > Talisman: 
> > Indeed, every one of your theories acknowledges the same 
> > premise.  But, let's distinguish time as a dimension versus time 
as 
> > an instance or occurance.  
> > 
> > Laurasia:
> > That is- because you believe that Time happens multiple times 
> > > . . .<snip> This is a great theory- except that Time doesn't 
have 
> > to function multiple times. Instead of  thinking about Time 
> > occurring many times over, think about time only ever happening
> >  once.
> > > 
> > Talisman:
> > You apparently didn't comprehend the post.  If you will re-read  
> > #78370, you will find that I devote a good deal of time 
explaining 
> > how Harry can't save himself in a "one seamless time/multiple 
> > experiences" scenerio. 
> > 
> > ...edited...
> > 
> > Talisman, 
> 
> 
> bboy_mn:
> Well, you say that you debunked the "one seamless time/multiple 
> experiences" scenerio in post #78370, but I don't see it. You 
cetainly
> mention it, you certainly reached conclusions, but I don't see that
> you established those conclusions.
> 
> Here are a couple of interesting posts that might help you gain a
> different perspective in time travel. I will add that these are my 
posts.
> 
> Quick Look at Time Travel
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/57776
> 
> Hermione Aging via Time turner
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/53555
> 
> You point out that we must be careful about how we regard time;
> whether it is an event or a dimension. 
> 
> I agree, and will add that time is RELATIVE (Thank you Dr. 
Einstein).
> We have one immutable source of time which is neutral and 
independant,
> marching ever forward; I call that the timeline. Then we have 
people's
> perception of that passage of time, and we have time as a 
biological
> event; the wearing down of the human body.
> 
> In the timeline, three Hermiones existed at once; relative to the
> timeline, Hermione lives one hour as three parallel occurances. But
> from Hermione's perspective and from the perspective of the 
biological
> passing of time (wear and tear), Hermione sees three consecutive
> hours. Remember time is relative, what you see depends on the
> perspective you view it from.
> 
> This is what the timeline sees-
> 9:00AM - three Hermiones appear at the doorway to three separate
> classrooms (say Arithmacy, Ancient Runes, and Tranfiguration), and
> then she takes those classes in parallel thereby allowing her to 
be in
> all three classes at once which in neutral unbiased time is one 
hour.
> 
> What Hermione sees-
> 9:00AM to 10:00AM - Hermione goes to Transfigurations, at 10AM she
> time travels back to 9AM.
> 
> 9:00AM to 10:00AM - Hermione goes to Ancient Runes, at 10AM she 
time
> travels back to 9AM.
> 
> 9:00AM to 10:00PM - Hermione goes to Arithmacy, at 10AM she goes to
> her first 10AM class.
> 
> 
> Three Hermione's appear at 9:00am and take all three classes. From
> Hermione's perspective, she takes three consecutive classes, and 
lives
> three consecutive hours. We only seen the passing of one hour, if 
we
> take the perspective of the immutable, neutral, and independant 
timeline.
> 
> On the night of the Dementors in PoA, the neutral unbiased timeline
> proceeds forward 24 hours in that one day. From the perspective of
> Harry and Hermione, and their biological mechanisms, the day is
> actually 27 hours long. Within the confines of that 24 hour 
timeline,
> Harry and Hermione experience 27 hours of linear time.
> 
> Expanding this to Hermione's studies and time travel through out 
the
> school years, the rest of the students have experienced 10 months 
of
> time both in the timeline and in their perspective. Hermione 
because
> of her time travels has experienced 10 months and 33 days. That's 
why
> Hermione is always so tired, because in biological self-perceived
> time, Hermione is living 30 hour days. 
> 
> Getting back to the PoA night of the Dementors, at approximately
> 9:00PM, the original Harry and Hermione along with Ron are hiding 
in
> the entrance hall, and just miss the time traveling Harry and 
Hermione
> as they appear in the entrance hall and hide in the cupboard. JKR
> makes a point of showing us this scene from the perspective of both
> parties, and imples that each hears the other's footsteps. This is 
JKR
>  hint pointing us to the fact that the first, and one and only time
> through these events, both sets of Harry and Hermione were there. 
> 
> In the linear, unbiased, neutral timeline at the one and only time
> 9:00PM occurred, both Harry and Hermione, and time travel Harry and
> Hermione are there. Since TT!Harry is there, having arrived at 
9pm, he
> is there and available at approx 11:30pm to save himself from the
> Dementors.
> 
> So in summary, Time is Relative; in the neutral time line, TT!Harry
> and TT!Hermione were always there because they arrived at 9pm, and 
9pm
> only occurs once. From the perceived passing of time and in 
biological
> time, Harry and Hermione experience 9pm twice, but that is a
> perception that is relative to their point of view.
> 
> Harry was always there because he arrived at 9pm in the linear
> unbiased timeline; saving himself occurred after 9pm.
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> bboy_mn

Severus here:

Excellent post, you explained it very well.  I could not figure out 
how to put into terms so it would sound understandable, instead of 
sounding like someone who is mentally divergent (12 monkeys w/ Bruce 
W.).   I was trying to compare it to traveling through a town, 
section, something without using the loop description.  I really 
felt for Hermione during those times, and I thought I was tired 
after a 70 hour work week, just think of adding 6+ hours to each of 
your days.  Once again, Great post.

Sevvy