MD Alternative: Lupin is the agent. (WAS Objections to Magic Dishwasher - Shriek

[annemehr <annemehr@yahoo.com>]

No: HPFGUIDX 51867

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall <thomasmwall at y...>" 
<thomasmwall at y...> wrote:
> 
> Tom wrote previously:
> One more thing. Someone (can't remember 
> who, just now, nor can I find the post - 
> sorry about that) has suggested previously 
> that Dumbledore might have hired Lupin 
> expressly because he knew that Sirius 
> Black had escaped from Azkaban, and that 
> there were indications that he was going 
> to come to Hogwarts. And that as an old 
> friend, Lupin might be the best person to 
> reason with him. Or else, Dumbledore would 
> have all three of the possible traitors under 
> his nose.
> 
> Annemehr replied:
> That may have been me. I did post these ideas in 
> #49095 

Annemehr:
Replying to my reply here, actually it was Pip!Squeak, in a reply to 
my post, who suggested the part about Dumbledore maybe wanting all 
three surviving Marauders under his nose so he can keep an eye on 
them.  Sorry, Pip!

<snipping>

> c) Dumbledore would send someone that Sirius Black would listen to, 
> so that
> d) That person will be able to manage everything calmly, get the 
> answers out of both Black and Pettigrew, and without saying anything 
> obvious, get Harry to grant the life-debt, and finally
> e) Dumbledore would send someone who could make it look most 
> plausibly like an accident that Pettigrew escaped.
> 
> Annemehr replied:
> So is it your premise that Dumbledore and Lupin knew about Pettigrew 
> all along? Because in my view it is more likely that they always 
> thought that Sirius *was* the traitor, and thus, in this theory, 
they 
> would have formulated the "life debt" plan for Sirius. Then, Lupin 
> was genuinely shocked to see Pettigrew appear on the map...
> 
> I reply:
> Well, no, I'm not sure that think that they have to have known all 
> along. IMHO, if we think a little laterally here about what was 
going 
> on in Lupin's mind when he was perusing the Marauder's Map, one 
thing 
> comes into my head... once Lupin saw Pettigrew, he'd have 
*immediate* 
> reason to doubt Sirius' guilt, right? 
<snip>
> 
> And then, I was re-reading the ending of PoA, and I noticed that, 
> time-wise, Dumbledore, with Fudge and Macnair enters the castle just 
> a few minutes before Lupin comes out. So, *totally* off canon, that 
> might be just enough time for him to tell Dumbledore that, whatever 
> the case about the animagical stuff, Pettigrew is around, and that 
> that's fishy. 
> 
> So, Dumbledore, perhaps, might have had a plan in development, so to 
> speak, over how to limit Voldemort's options in the resurrection 
> field... it's *possible* that he did a little quick thinking and 
> realized that if Pettigrew is around, there would be a good chance 
> that Sirius *might* be innocent. He could have sent Lupin with vague 
> instructions, something to the effect of "find out the story and get 
> the traitor indebted to Harry." 

<snip>

> Well, if we can agree that Lupin might have realized almost 
> immediately when he saw Pettigrew that something was awry, without 
> totally exonerating Sirius in his head, and if we can agree that he 
> went, under some kind of instructions to "find out the truth," or 
> something like that, then I think we could get around it.
> 
> Whaddaya think?
> 
> -Tom

Annemehr:

Ummm...

Let's try another angle.  Let's look at what point in time each stage 
of the "Life-indebted Servant" plan could have become plausible.

At almost any time, Dumbledore could have realized that one of the 
ways Voldemort could reembody himself was the "Flesh, Blood and Bone" 
potion we saw in GoF.
Ditto for the fact that it would be very convenient if a servant 
returned to Voldemort with a life debt to Harry, especially if that 
servant's flesh were to go into the potion.
Dumbledore could then have begun thinking up ways to ensure Voldemort 
sees this potion as his best hope, and that the indebted servant's 
flesh went into it.

At some unknown time after testifying that Sirius had been the 
secret-keeper, Dumbledore may or may not have found out about 
Pettigrew.  Personally, I think he still thought the traitorous 
secret-keeper was Sirius until the night of the SS scene.

After Sirius' escape, Dumbledore hires Lupin to help protect Harry, 
and they (with or without a suspicious Snape) begin trying to concoct 
a plan to achieve sending the indebted servant (Sirius, as they 
believe) to Voldemort.  Their limitations at this point: How exactly 
are they to know just when Sirius will manage to get to Harry?  What 
if things start happening during the full moon?  How exactly are they 
going to engineer a life debt?

Then, Lupin gets the map from Snape.  He is ashamed to tell Dumbledore 
about it since it would reveal Lupin's knowledge about secret passages 
that he had never mentioned before.  This means that Dumbledore cannot 
use it to refine his plans.  However, Lupin does begin using it to 
watch for Sirius, so at least they have a better chance of catching 
his confrontation with Harry.

Perhaps they still don't know how they are going to engineer a life 
debt, BUT, for one thing, they still need to protect Harry from the 
traitor, and they can always keep in mind the life-debt idea if they 
can manage it when the time comes.  If the life debt is successfully 
created, Lupin or Dumbledore will then do their best to see that the 
traitor escapes to search for Voldemort.  In other words, they have no 
real way of actually scripting the scene in detail, but they always 
keep the chance of achieving the hoped-for result in mind, if 
possible.

Then, Lupin sees Ron and Pettigrew on the map.

At this point it is just as you say, that Lupin immediately realises 
that everything they thought they knew is out the window.  He realises 
that he must at all costs follow them and sort out the truth and find 
out who is really a traitor.  As he is running, he is thinking about 
it and deciding that he must still try to send the real traitor, 
whoever he is, to Voldemort if he can.  He really does not need to 
speak to Dumbledore for this, either, I think.

Well, to sum up, I think perhaps the only plan was to look for the 
opportunity to send the traitor to Voldemort with a life debt if they 
could.  As Sirius (the presumed traitor) and Harry are always running 
about like loose cannons, I don't see how they could have planned it 
out in any real detail.  However, as they "knew" that Sirius was after 
Harry and they had to be on the lookout for him, they thought they may 
as well try to achieve the life-debt plan if they could, since it 
would be so helpful to their cause.  "It's crazy, but it just might 
work!" and, "Hey, it couldn't hurt!"  By a series of very lucky 
chances, Lupin does see the Trio, Sirius, and Pettigrew come together 
on the map, they do manage to sort out who's innocent and who's not, 
Harry does save Pettigrew's life, and Pettigrew does escape.

WAIT, WAIT!!!
It doesn't change much, but it does help explain where Dumbledore and 
Lupin thought the life debt was going to come from all along...

In the Shrieking Shack, doesn't it look as though Lupin truly intends 
to help kill Peter?  So, in the planning stages long before this, 
could Lupin have told Dumbledore, "Okay, I'll go along with your plan, 
but if Harry doesn't step in to stop it, I swear I will take that 
stinking traitor's life!"

The big question then becomes, would Dumbledore acquiesce to this?  
But he'd have to, if he wanted a true life debt created, wouldn't he?

The other big question is, under this scenario, what the heck is the 
point of Snape being in the Shrieking Shack at all?  Just to conjure 
the stretchers afterwards, or to give Fudge a false impression of what 
went on that night?

Annemehr
very confused...