MD Alternative: Lupin is the agent. (WAS Objections to Magic Dishwasher - Shriek

[Tom Wall <thomasmwall@yahoo.com>]

No: HPFGUIDX 51885

Annemehr wrote:
Let's try another angle. Let's look at 
what point in time each stage of the 
"Life-indebted Servant" plan could have 
become plausible.

At almost any time, Dumbledore could 
have realized that one of the ways 
Voldemort could reembody himself was 
the "Flesh, Blood and Bone" potion 
we saw in GoF.

Ditto for the fact that it would be 
very convenient if a servant returned 
to Voldemort with a life debt to 
Harry, especially if that servant's 
flesh were to go into the potion.

Dumbledore could then have begun 
thinking up ways to ensure Voldemort 
sees this potion as his best hope, and 
that the indebted servant's 
flesh went into it.
END QUOTE.

I reply:
Agreed on all of it... I'm not sure 
if we have to go through all of this 
trouble, though, since MD, as far as 
I understand it (which, I confess, 
might not be as totally indepth as 
the MDDT would like it,) doesn't 
really try to establish the 
specifics on that... and I was 
trying to just throw a counter 
spin into the old dishwasher. 

You know, it just occurs to me that my use of the word `spin' just 
there made me realize that, in my head, I see a "Magic Dryer," like 
one of those in a laundromat or something, not an actual 
dishwasher. ;-)


Annemehr wrote:
At some unknown time after testifying that Sirius had been the 
secret-keeper, Dumbledore may or may not have found out about 
Pettigrew. Personally, I think he still thought the traitorous 
secret-keeper was Sirius until the night of the SS scene.

I reply:
Well, to be honest, my first reading of the whole thing led me to 
that conclusion as well. 

But, I'm not sure that we can go that route if we're just discussing 
a plausible alternative to MD as it stands now. I mean, I'm not 
trying to totally change the theory – in fact, I think that if we did 
that we'd be essentially creating a *new* theory, which isn't what I 
was trying to do – I'm just trying to conduct a sort of thought 
exercise to illustrate (mostly to the MDDT) that the theory can keep 
all of its premises and still use a different agent.


Annemehr wrote:
After Sirius' escape, Dumbledore hires Lupin to help protect Harry, 
and they (with or without a suspicious Snape) begin trying to concoct 
a plan to achieve sending the indebted servant (Sirius, as they 
believe) to Voldemort. Their limitations at this point: How exactly 
are they to know just when Sirius will manage to get to Harry? What 
if things start happening during the full moon? How exactly are they 
going to engineer a life debt?

I reply:
Well, I'm down with Lupin being hired for a purpose. And I'd like to 
think that Lupin was hired *expressly* for the purpose of being 
around now that Sirius Black is roaming surreptitiously through the 
countryside.

But, here's where I have to stop and think a minute: Do you think it 
would be *possible* to get a life debt out of Sirius sans Peter? I 
really don't think so, since the interplay between those characters 
is what makes the life-debt happen. In other words, without anyone to 
shift the blame *to,* how could Harry forgive and forget? 

Side not: this takes us WAY off of the premises of MD, because MD 
assumes from the get-go that somehow they knew Pettigrew was the 
secret keeper, right?  I'm getting wary of being too far off canon 
too. Ultimately, I don't want to have to fill in too many voids with 
inference. IMHO, that makes any theory weaker.

Although it's moving a little starboard, I do like where you're going 
with it...


Annemehr wrote:
Then, Lupin gets the map from Snape. He is ashamed to tell Dumbledore 
about it since it would reveal Lupin's knowledge about secret 
passages that he had never mentioned before. This means that 
Dumbledore cannot use it to refine his plans. However, Lupin does 
begin using it to watch for Sirius, so at least they have a better 
chance of catching his confrontation with Harry.

Perhaps they still don't know how they are going to engineer a life 
debt, BUT, for one thing, they still need to protect Harry from the 
traitor, and they can always keep in mind the life-debt idea if they 
can manage it when the time comes. If the life debt is successfully 
created, Lupin or Dumbledore will then do their best to see that the 
traitor escapes to search for Voldemort. In other words, they have no 
real way of actually scripting the scene in detail, but they always 
keep the chance of achieving the hoped-for result in mind, if 
possible.

I reply:
This is totally in character with the theory. Good analysis here - I 
really like it. =)


Annemehr wrote:
Then, Lupin sees Ron and Pettigrew on the map.

At this point it is just as you say, that Lupin immediately realises 
that everything they thought they knew is out the window. He realises 
that he must at all costs follow them and sort out the truth and find 
out who is really a traitor. As he is running, he is thinking about 
it and deciding that he must still try to send the real traitor, 
whoever he is, to Voldemort if he can. He really does not need to 
speak to Dumbledore for this, either, I think.

I reply:
Agreed, but only if Lupin was in on the development of the life-debt 
plan in the first place. If he was in on it, then he wouldn't have to 
talk to Dumbledore. Although the time convenience is too nice a bit 
of convenient canon to skip out on... Dumbledore enters, and a few 
minutes later Lupin's exiting. I think if Lupin was in on the pre-
planning, then it can fit nicely into everything without causing the 
original premises to collapse.


Annemehr wrote:
Well, to sum up, I think perhaps the only plan was to look for the 
opportunity to send the traitor to Voldemort with a life debt if they 
could. As Sirius (the presumed traitor) and Harry are always running 
about like loose cannons, I don't see how they could have planned it 
out in any real detail. However, as they "knew" that Sirius was after 
Harry and they had to be on the lookout for him, they thought they 
may as well try to achieve the life-debt plan if they could, since it 
would be so helpful to their cause. "It's crazy, but it just might 
work!" and, "Hey, it couldn't hurt!" By a series of very lucky 
chances, Lupin does see the Trio, Sirius, and Pettigrew come together 
on the map, they do manage to sort out who's innocent and who's not, 
Harry does save Pettigrew's life, and Pettigrew does escape.

WAIT, WAIT!!!
It doesn't change much, but it does help explain where Dumbledore and 
Lupin thought the life debt was going to come from all along...

In the Shrieking Shack, doesn't it look as though Lupin truly intends 
to help kill Peter? So, in the planning stages long before this, 
could Lupin have told Dumbledore, "Okay, I'll go along with your 
plan, 
but if Harry doesn't step in to stop it, I swear I will take that 
stinking traitor's life!"

The big question then becomes, would Dumbledore acquiesce to this? 
But he'd have to, if he wanted a true life debt created, wouldn't he?
END QUOTE.

I reply:
Well, if we shift the plan for creating a life debt with Sirius, 
we're totally moving into the realm of theory here. I don't think 
that there'd be any canon to support it at all.  I like it, but I 
just don't see any way of getting evidence for it.

But, if we can accept the MD original idea that perhaps the knowledge 
of the life-debt came from Hagrid's stint in Azkaban, then we don't 
have to worry about developing the plan for Sirius? You agree?

I also get the impression, one way or the other, that although the 
life-debt plan might have been one among many possible contingencies 
that Dumbledore was planning, I just don't see how Snape OR Lupin 
could have had any advanced preparation for the Shrieking Shack. In 
other words, even if they were helping Dumbledore to formulate the 
plan (Snape because he's the Potions master, or Lupin because he's 
the DADA instructor and the potion is an `old bit of dark magic,' 
paraphrased from GoF,) I think that we're definitely looking at 
putting it into action hastily at best.

As for them knowing about Pettigrew being the secret-keeper, I think 
that I'm okay conceding that point to the MDDT, although we don't 
have to.

If we do then Lupin's just foraging for the correct information from 
Sirius at the beginning of the Shrieking Shack, and the plan's been 
in preparation for a while.

If we don't, then Lupin's actually making a serious determination at 
the beginning of the Shrieking Shack, and the life-debt plan is sort 
of a last minute boon. Although in this case, I think it's essential 
for Lupin to have consulted with Dumbledore briefly.

There's *some* canon to support the notion that Hagrid could have 
heard it in Azkaban, if Sirius did, for instance. But, for the sake 
of argument, I see where you're going with it. In other words, 
Dumbledore would want to hedge his bets one way or the other for the 
possibility of getting the traitor life-debted to Harry.

I just think that we're setting ourselves up for a massive headache 
trying to formulate how they might have applied that to Sirius, and 
how they might have gotten Harry to forgive him without being able to 
pin the blame on someone else. <head – hurts>


Annemehr wrote:
The other big question is, under this scenario, what the heck is the 
point of Snape being in the Shrieking Shack at all? Just to conjure 
the stretchers afterwards, or to give Fudge a false impression of 
what went on that night?

I reply:
Well, if we can accept Lupin!MD as I wrote it with a few more 
clarifications, then I'd say that Snape is just there for the revenge 
reason that would be on the surface in the novel. He legitimately 
went to Lupin's office with the potion, and then, seeing his old 
enemy darting along the old secret corridor, he followed. When he got 
there, vengeance possibilties beyond his wildest *dreams* started 
dancing in his head. And afterward, conjuring the stretchers is just 
his job as a teacher. The confunded bit is all to blame Sirius 
further, and then the enraged scene at the end there is all 
legitimate.

Although, having just finished reading Marianne's post, I think that 
it could be argued very well (although, I'm not going to try to do 
that now
) that *both* were sent there by Dumbledore to provide a 
very big character lesson for Harry.  That's a really ambitious 
theory though.

Good luck on that one! ;-)

Also, Agent!Sirius, anyone?

-Tom