SUNLIGHT ULTRA (Was TBAY: Washing dishes and powders

[Shauna <wind3213@hotmail.com>]

No: HPFGUIDX 52238

Before I reply to your reply, I want to state something very basic 
about the way SUNLIGHT ULTRA works.  You pointed to it in your 
last reply, Tom, and it's worth emphasizing.

The essence of Sunlight Ultra is that Snape and Lupin are 
working together.  All variations thereof fall beneath the umbrella 
of SU.  These include variations even of mine and Risti's:

1a.  They didn't know Peter was alive until the night of the SS.
1b.  They knew Peter was alive before the night of the SS.
2a.  Snape and Lupin hated eachother.
2b.  Snape and Lupin faked hating eachother.

Other possible variations within SU include whether or not 
Snape was knocked out, whether Snape/Lupin planned for it, 
when exactly they found out about PP if they did it before the night 
of the SS, why Snape forced Lupin to resign (Risti says he was 
angry about Sirius escaping, I say it was in order to continue his 
role in acting out his Lupin-hate).

In these cases, either answer fits within canon, and within the 
overall framework of Sunlight Ultra.  You can chose either one.  
We don't profess to know which is the correct answer, as either 
is possible.  We think that this is a benefit, not a drawback, of our 
plan.  It is related to, but not equivalent to, the flexibility that 
Dumbledore, Snape, and Lupin have as characters.  With them 
all as agents, they can exert more control, yet less influence on 
the events - something vital to a successful plan and also to 
making HRH and PP believe that the authenticity of all that 
happened. 


> I reply:
> A few points here... I guess that the position has to be that he 
> *was* knocked out, right? I mean, as Pip pointed out at another 
time, 
> Snape was bleeding later in the hospital scene, and there's 
the 
> bumping-of-the-head from which I infer unconsciousness... 
but, I 
> think that you could argue here that the HHR 'expelliarmus' 
wasn't 
> part of the plan, as you suggested re: Lupin's wand.

Yes, I would say that he *was* knocked out, according to a plan 
he and Lupin had worked out.  But that is my personal opinion.  
As co-creator of Sunlight Ultra, I would say if you could find canon 
supporting faking!unconciousness!Snape, then your variation is 
welcome as part of the theory.


>So, in that sense, they were probably (I'd guess) a total 
> complication to Spymaster!Dumbledore's planning, in that they 
do seem 
> to make things more difficult. But then again, there's really no 
way 
> that Spymaster!Dumbledore could have predicted that things 
would come 
> to a head like this, nor could he have worked out when these 
events 
> would happen.

True.  And I think Dumbledore senses that they could complicate 
his plans, given his extremely angry reactions to them.  But as 
you said, he could not have planned for them to be part of the 
plan.  (Well, I suppose someone could have tipped the 
dementors off to where they were, but there's no reason to 
suppose that someone did.)

 
> I agree - nice reasoning here on Sirius. I completely concur. 
And I 
> guess I answered myself again with the dementors. I'm betting 
I 
> misinterpreted your earlier bit on how the dementors 
*shouldn't* have 
> been there. Here, you seem to be implying that they're, um, not 
a 
> part of the plan, which I agree with. So, you're saying that they 
> *shouldn't* have been there in the sense of 'not in the original 
> plans?' 

Right.    I think.  :)


> I reply:
> Um, minor point, here:  Where's your second 'U?' I see a 'G' 
where 
> the 'U' in 'Ultra' should be. So, I see 'SUNLIGHT GLTRA.' I really 
> like the acronym, though. ;-)

Oops.  Insert "use" instead of "give", and you should get Sunlight 
*U*ltra.


> So, instead of a theory with just one answer, what we're 
looking at 
> is one that posits several alternatives for questions like these, 
> right? That's a good plan, IMHO, but does it leave too much 
hanging? 
> On this note, are you and Risti going to bring these points 
together, 
> or are you going to build both options into the plan?

We're going to build both options into the plan.

In a way, it's rather like what you were trying to do with MD with 
PA.  You wanted to find a variant of it that contradicted 
agent!Snape, but fit beneath MD.  The options built into the plan 
contradict eachother, but not SU as a whole.  I think it 
strengthens SU, but others will have to decide for themselves.


> Along the flexibility lines, it seems to me like this kind of stuff 
> can be built in without making the theory incoherent or 
anything, but 
> if I'm right, then your *basic* position, minus all of the specifics, 
> is: 'There are two agents in the Shrieking Shack.' And the other 
> stuff is reasoned from there, right?

:)  Well, let's specify Lupin and Snape.  Because we don't want 
anyone thinking, "Okay, well, here's my evidence for why 
Hermione and Pettigrew are really Dumbledore's secret agents 
at the Shrieking Shack!  You *said* it would fit in Sunlight Ultra..."  
But yes, you're essentially correct.


> I guess I'll keep waiting around for the full theory to spring into 
> being. <grin> 
> 
> Again, this is just one of my issues with the TBAY style, as 
IMHO it 
> sort of leaves some things up in the air. Again, no complaints 
or 
> objections if you're styling SUNLIGHT ULTRA this way 
deliberately. 
> I'll just keep asking for clarifications when I'm confused.

Well, I'm working on a non-TBAY style post (I call it my 
"manifesto") which basically summarizes everything.  It'll be up 
by the end of the weekend.


> I reply:
> Yeah, I think it's a safer possibility, but this brings us to my 
> being more anal about a) getting stuff from the text, and b) not 
> wanting to assume that anyone's lying. Just me, though.

See, I don't have any problem with people lying, because they're 
seen to do it in the text.  (Risti gave an example of where Lupin 
lies in the original SU message.)  The question is really what 
they're lying about.  Lying about Wolfsbane potion or who 
manufactured a map is one thing.  Faking emotions is rather 
more difficult (although still possible - consider Crouch/Moody 
and the fact that Snape could be a spy on Voldemort - talented 
actors, these characters are).

Of course, I shouldn't have said that, because I support the idea 
that Lupin's known all along that Sirius was innocent.  Oh, well.  
It's still possible, it just presupposes a more devious Lupin.

 
~ Shauna