SUNLIGHT ULTRA (Was TBAY: Washing dishes and powders

[Risti <pretty_feet51@yahoo.com>]

No: HPFGUIDX 52268

You know, I hang around a computer for almost 24 hours *waiting* for 
someone to respond to this post, and wouldn't you know that the FIRST 
post after I left for work this afternoon would have been Tom's 
reply.  Oh well, I'm going to do my best to respond to the points 
he's raised, and defend myself where me and Shauna differ. 

I wrote:
And when Lupin transforms, Snape regains consciousness."

Tom replies:
Well, canonically we have Snape waking up after the dementors have 
already been scared off by Harry's Patronus. So, are you two 
suggesting that Snape was actually a sort-of witness to the whole 
dementor/Patronus bit?

Yes.  Sort of.  Snape was aware to a certain degree, in that he 
wasn't unconscious, but I believe that the Dementors had a strong 
hold over him, and so he wasn't totally aware.

Tom asked(in summary): Do you believe that Snape planned on being 
knocked out?

I personally think that Snape was faking it, and that him faking it 
was a part of the plan.  I think that Lupin and Snape knew that the 
trio wouldn't be very receptive to having the teacher that they 
loathe in this already very stressful situation.  Yet they knew that 
they needed backup.  So Snape came in, let out the information that 
Lupin apparantly hadn't taken his potion that night(another issue 
I'll get to in a second), and then riled up the Trio so that they 
would try and do something to stop them.  As I pointed out, Lupin had 
just used Expelliarmus when he burst into the room.  This would have 
put it clear in the Trio's mind.  Snape and Lupin counted on the fact 
that a)this would be the spell clearest in their minds, and b)they 
wouldn't *really* want to curse a teacher of theirs, and expelliarmus 
after all is a spell to disarm, not harm.

That particular reason is exactly why I think Snape was faking it.  I 
think that the spell really did cause him to get knocked against the 
wall-that is canon supported.  However, nowhere in canon do we see 
Expelliarmus actually harm someone, because that's not the type of 
spell that it is.  Take their wand or other item away from them?  
Yes.  Knock them against a wall? Yes.  Knock them unconscious? No.  I 
think that Snape or Lupin then put a sort of limpness spell on 
himself that would keep him from reflex jumps, but was something he 
could remove by his own will.  Yes, I know that's alot of 
speculation, but to me, there's alot of canon that contradicts the 
idea that that spell could knock someone out.

Risti wrote:
"One of these days that boy is going to have to stop hiding behind 
his owl," Risti said, shaking his her head.

Tom replies:
*chuckle* This line made me laugh when I read it. I haven't been 
using the TBAY for a few reasons: 1) The style makes it harder to 
tell where one is going with something, 2) It takes so much effort to 
write a theory out in that way, and 3) I'm still not too comfortable 
inserting words into others' mouths yet. Perhaps when I'm more aware 
of everyone's default positions, then I could be, but I'm not right 
now. <grin>

I reply:
Well, keep in mind I'm someone who wrote my first TBAY while still on 
moderated status, and basically told Shauna I was writing her into 
it.  I actually completely understand your reasons for not doing it.  
Point 1 is why Shauna's working on the Manifesto, Point 2 is why it 
took so long for this to come out, and 3 is something I still feel 
uncomfortable with, but have learnt to just do it anyhow.

Tom said:
And, so, I'm guessing that you guys are 
accepting Azkaban!Hagrid in your formulations as well? IMHO, I really 
like that inference. It's something that I had totally forgotten 
about by the end of GoF. 

I reply:
I don't.  Actually, when I started putting this theory together I 
did, but then I started having doubts.  No I am almost completely 
certain.  As Glum Plum recently pointed out, Azkaban is a castle, a 
big place.  There's no garantee that Hagrid would hear the same 
things as Sirius Black.  Also, Sirius Black was there for 13 years, 
while Hagrid was there for a couple months.  Furthermore, I take 
Hagrid's reaction in the Three Broomsticks as being completely 
candid, as he already probably had a good amount of mulled mead in 
him.  Both Peter Pettigrew and Sirius Black are discussed, and the 
only thing Hagrid reacts to is when he is told what is believed about 
Sirius.  In my opinion, if he had heard something about Pettigrew 
while in Azkaban, or about the Secret Keeper betrayal at all, it 
would have come up.  Actually, I think that Sirius was unique in his 
ability to actually process what he was hearing while in Azkaban, 
because he was able to keep his mind in his animagus form.  Look at 
how Hagrid describes his time in Azkaban in PoA, p163-164(softcover)
~
After a brief pause, Hermione said timidly, "Is it awful in there, 
Hagrid?"
"Yeh've no idea," said Hagrid quietly.  "Never bin anywhere like it.  
THought I was goin' mad.  Kep' goin' over horrible stuff in me 
mind... the day I got expelled from Hogwarts ... day me Dad died... 
day I had ter let Norbert go...Ye can' really remember who yeh are 
after a while.  An' yeh can' see the point o' livin' at all.  I used 
ter hope I'd jus' die in me sleep...when they let me out, it was like 
bein' born again, ev'rythin' came floodin' back, it was the bes' 
feelin' in the world."
~

Does that sound like an experience that a man would come out of with 
an important piece of information?  In all the horrors Hagrid 
describes, he doesn't list 'hearing the screams of others'.  Even if 
he had heard something, his mind probably blocked his memory of the 
place, which was why it felt like he was being reborn.  That there is 
the main reason I don't believe in Azkaban!Hagrid.


I wrote:
"Just in case," said Risti with a smile, "This theory is full 
of `just in case' reasoning, as any good spy plan should be.

Tom replied:
Yeah - I guess I answered my earlier question. As long as you're 
aware of it, that's cool by me, although it means that SUNLIGHT ULTRA 
relies more on inferences than either of the other two. Although I 
bet we could keep digging around for more...

I reply:
Just a quick  note here, because I think you may have been 
misunderstanding me here.  What I mean by 'just in case' reasoning is 
that Lupin, Snape, and Dumbledore were planning alot of back ups and 
various scenarios, 'just in case' they should happen.  I didn't mean 
that the theory was made using 'just in case' reasoning.

I wrote:
"Ahh, but even the most brilliantly laid plans must sometimes be laid 
aside. When Lupin and Snape spotted Pettigrew on the map along with 
Sirius, they knew that something wasn't right. They didn't have time 
to come up with too many other plans, however, and decided that 
they'd probably have to wing it off of the plan that they'd already 
come up with.

Tom replied:
Two points on this passage: 
1) If Lupin had been watching the map for quite a while now, and had 
seen Sirius on it, then he would have seen Pettigrew already, right?
2) Again, I totally agree here - the plan is being implemented as a 
last minute thing, so there are definitely holes in whatever plans 
are being made, and I agree that it was probably a spin-off of an 
earlier plan.

I reply:
Part of me does wonder if Lupin saw Pettigrew on the map earlier, but 
somehow, I just can't think that Lupin's thought process in the SS 
was acting.  ('But then...Why hasn't he shown himself before now?  
Unless-' Lupin's eyes suddenly widened, as though he was seeing 
something beyond Black, something none of the rest could see, '-
unless he was the one...unless you switched...without telling me?')
(p252, PoA, softcover)  This seems to much as though Lupin is still 
processing very new information.  Also, remember that Pettigrew 
*knew* that the trio had the map.  Once free, it would make sense 
that he would know where he could hide from it's powers.  Why didn't 
he escape entirely?  I think he was hanging around, hoping Sirius 
would be recaptured, so that he could go back to being the pet of a 
wizard boy, perhaps someone other then Ron this time.  I think it is 
very true that Pettigrew wouldn't willfully return to Lord Voldemort 
unless he knew he was rising in power again.  After the SS incident, 
however, he had no choice.

Tom wrote:
Well, I argued in my response to the MDDT that the canon's out 
on Wolfsbane potion so far - so, Lupin might have taken it enough 
earlier in the week to cover this problem. Or, as you suggest, 
he might be lying about not taking it. Wondering what you think 
about that...

Shauna replied in 52223:
I think that while your argument is possible, taking and faking is 
the far safer possibility, especially considering that with both of 
them agents, there's no risk to doing it.

Tom replied:
Yeah, I think it's a safer possibility, but this brings us to my 
being more anal about a) getting stuff from the text, and b) not 
wanting to assume that anyone's lying. Just me, though.

I reply:

I have several, canon supported reasons for believing that what Snape 
said about Lupin forgetting to take his potion was a lie.
1)Lupin's character: I do not see Lupin as a forgetful person, or 
someone who would be so reckless in a stressful situation to forget 
something like that.
2)If somehow Lupin did manage to forget to take the potion, why did 
Snape forget the potion back in Lupin's room?  JKR tells us what 
Snape has in his hands when he gets to the Shrieking Shack, '"I found 
this at the base of the Whomping Willow," said Snape, throwing the 
CLoak aside, careful to keep his wand pointing at Lupin's chest.'(p 
263, PoA, softcover).  I somehow doubt that both Lupin *and* Snape 
would forget something that important in the heat of the moment.
3)In response to your theory, in Flight of the Fat Lady, we learn 
several things about the potion.  a)it must be taken immediately, and 
b)Lupin probably needed to take some the next day.  If it was an 
optional thing for Lupin to take some the next day, which I don't 
think it was, the interaction between Snape and Lupin makes it sound 
as if it would be Lupin's iniative to get more from Snape.  If he 
could get away with taking it only once a week, I don't think Snape 
would go looking for him to give him more potion.  He'd wait until 
Lupin told him he needed more.

I think that's all the points that I wanted to make.  I'm sorry if 
things got a little muffled in the TBAY styling of the post.  Towards 
the end, there were certain arguments and canon I was leaving out 
because I just wanted to get it completed.  I knew someone like you 
would ask the right questions soon enough so I could explain it.

~Risti