[HPforGrownups] Re: Against Evil!Lupin responses (long)

[Maria Kirilenko]

No: HPFGUIDX 49536


 I wrote:

>>First off, I wouldn't say that we know all about JKR to make 
assumptions about what she would or wouldn't do. Secondly, 
Lupin and Sirius *don't* have the same narrative function. Yes, 
they are James' friends, but Ron and Hr are Harry's friends too... 
Both of them couldn't be traitors - so how can we say that 2 of 
James' friends are traitors? (Am I making sense? L and S are 
sooo different, and they play such different roles in the story. 
BTW, don't Fred and George have the same narrative function? 
Could one of them be a traitor? <grin. I am not really 
serious.>)<<

Pippin replied:
Lupin and Sirius have different personalities, no argument there. 
But they have very similar background, the same relationship to 
Harry (which Hermione and Ron definitely *don't* have) and to 
the wizarding world at large. The only thing that good!Lupin can 
do, narratively, that Sirius can't, is turn into a werewolf at an 
inconvenient time--and I don't think that's enough.

My answer:

One second. I disagree with your statement that Lupin and Sirius have very similar backgrounds. We don’t know *anything* about them (in comparison with how much we know about Ron and Hermione). As for the same relationship to Harry, I disagree with that as well. Although Harry likes them both, he hasn’t once remembered Lupin in GoF, except as the best DADA teacher he had – and that’s not very personal, but he was all over Sirius (happy to have a relative at last).



Pippin continued:
Ron and Hermione bubble over with conflict. So much so, that 
some of our most prominent listees (waves at list-mom Penny 
and the crew of the good SHIP H/H) think they'll never be 
reconciled. Even Fred and George have their disputes. But the 
strongest image of Sirius and Lupin is when they stand 
shoulder to shoulder, ready to blast poor Pettigrew into the next 
world, both seeking to avenge James, or so we are led to think.

I answer:

Who knows how Lupin and Sirius behaved when they were carefree youths <g>. Lupin’s personality resembles that of Hermione a little, and likewise for Sirius and Ron. I don’t have trouble imagining conflicts between Sirius and Remus, although I think that they got along better than Ron and Hermione (that’s just speculation on my part, but to me it seems very likely). As for S and L standing shoulder to shoulder, wouldn’t R&H stand shoulder to shoulder in such circumstances? 



Pippin goes on to say:
And Harry stands up to them, "facing the wands."  Dumbledore 
says there is now a life-debt between Harry and Pettigrew.   But 
is that alone enough to create a life-debt? Sirius tells Harry that 
James saved Snape "at great risk to himself." The element of  
jeopardy is not there if neither Sirius nor Lupin is, in truth, a 
murderer.  I think that must be an essential, or Harry would owe 
a life-debt to Snape for keeping him from falling off his broom in 
Book One, and another to Dumbledore for breaking his fall at the 
Hufflepuff/Gryffindor match in Book Three. 

I reply:

I found it rather hard to follow this thought, but I understood it this way – correct me if I’m wrong.

I think you’re saying that 1. In order for a life-debt to be created there must be a real threat to the life of the wizard-to-be-in-debt (just, just <g>), 2. There wouldn’t be a real threat to Pettigrew’s life unless Lupin was really a murderer, i.e. a spy for Voldie and generally evil. 

IMO, Pettigrew’s life really is threatened, and Lupin does not have to be generally evil in order to kill Peter. Sirius wants to kill Peter and is ready to do so even before Lupin comes, and I think we all agree that Sirius is not evil. As for Snape owing his life to James, maybe he did, but now that James dead, I guess that the life-debt is somehow gone as well. And, concerning Harry’s life-debt to Dumbledore and Snape: wizards seem to be less fragile than Muggles (Neville fell from his broom in PS and was OK & Harry was rescued from an almost-destroyed house unharmed when he was only 1 year old) – so we don’t know whether Harry would have died as a result of his falls.

Scott wrote:

>>Dumbledore trusts Lupin<<

Pippin replied:

Does he? I think I just proved he does not, since he obviously 
believes that there is a life-debt between Pettigrew and Harry.
But in any case, Dumbledore hired the obviously untrustworthy  
Lockhart, and kept Quirrell on after Snape had begun to suspect 
him. Dumbledore sent Sirius to lie low at Lupin's, but that could 
have been to keep Lupin under surveillance. 

I say:

I don’t think you proved that DD doesn’t trust Lupin, given what I just wrote in the paragraph above. Then again, we don’t know if he does. I’m inclined to think that DD trusted Lupin. Hiring Lockhart is one thing (no other man for the job, remember?), and hiring an evil, evil person who is a Voldemort supporter is another. (Since DD didn’t know Moody was fake I assume he didn’t know Quirrell was evil either, and we don’t know whether Snape shared his suspicions about Quirrell with DD).

 
Scott:
>>Second point.  Lupin's greatest fear, as shown by the boggart, 
is the Full moon.  Now, I can only guess this is because he's 
afraid of turning into a werewolf and hurting innocent people.  I'm 
sorry, but if Lupin were evil, why would he be afraid of this?<<

Me again:

On this point I actually disagree with Scott, even though we share the same opinion that Lupin is good. There’s evil and there’s evil. Being a Voldemort supporter and doing whatever things they do (torture people, kill them with curses, bring them before Voldy etc) is one thing, and actually wanting to regularly rip people apart with your own teeth (excuse my graphic description) is another. I don’t think that even Voldemort himself would have wanted to do that. And, as Pippin says below, the pain Lupin goes through is almost unbearable. 

On a tangent, one thing that really interests me is what hurts more – the Cruciatus Curse or transforming into a werewolf. Is it OK to wonder about that? I don’t know. I think that if transforming hurts even half as much as a Cruciatus Curse, I don’t see how Lupin or any other werewolf for that matter would want to even think about hurting anyone else.

Pippin comments on Scott’s point:

Sorry, but when Lupin talks about why he loathes his 
transformations, he never mentions a fear of harming innocent 
people.  He talks  about losing his human mind, he talks about 
being separated from humans to bite, the pain he goes through, 
and the way he scratches and bites himself. It's only as he's 
leaving Hogwarts (and Crookshanks isn't there to call his bluff) 
that he mentions that he "might have bitten any of you"--and 
says that's a point he didn't see till "after last night"!!

Maria:

IMHO, Lupin is (and was) always locked up so well during his transformations that him biting another human being was pretty much out of the question.  We must remember that he was bitten as a small child. No doubt his parents consoled him so much (oh, poor guy… I want him to be happy) that he got used to the idea that he was secure and had no chance of escaping (I know I expressed that kind of badly, but I hope you understand me).

As for his MWPP “adventures,” when he was not securely locked up – well, he was young and stupid and giddy, as he says himself. James, Sirius and Peter went on rampages with him too, and never had second thoughts (OK, maybe they did, but they were *second* thoughts <g>) – and they aren’t evil.  In Hogwarts Lupin drinks Wolfsbane potion – why should he be afraid of biting anyone? He says “that’s a point he didn’t see till’after last night.’” There’s nothing wrong with it. Before last night, there was, as I just said, no chance of him biting anyone, in the evening in the Shrieking Shack he was much too preoccupied too even remember there was a full moon, and  ‘last night’ he was a werewolf, losing his human mind. 

Scott:
>>Third Point.  If Lupin were a Voldemort supporter whose job it 
was to protect Harry, why would he have resigned at the end of 
the year? <snip> 
<<
Pippin answers:
<snip evidence> Lupin came to Hogwarts to get Peter, and resigned in order to chase Peter 
back to Voldemort. 

Me:

Since this taken by itself is not evidence of Lupin being evil, I won’t comment on it. (I’m quoting this in order to have a full reply.)

Scott:
>>Fourth Point.  If Lupin were a Voldemort supporter, why didn't 
he kill Sirius to silence him?<<

I think he tried. Twice. Who called the Dementors on to the 
grounds at the Quidditch match? Lupin *says* they came 
because they were hungry and the excitement of the match drew 
them. Really? But why didn't they come to the earlier matches, 
and why did they only come when Sirius was there? Why did they 
come after Sirius again at the end of PoA? If they can be 
summoned mentally, then Lupin in wolf-form could have called 
them, provided he had had his potion, of course.

Me:

I don’t think you can summon dementors like that – there’s no canon to support that, at least. I think that before the match when they came they weren’t hungry, and then they became hungry, and they came (my English professor would kill me for that sentence <g>). It could also be that they somehow sense when Sirius is there – they had 12 years to get acquainted with his soul, after all <g>.

Scott:
>>Fifth Point, part A.  If Lupin were a Voldemort supporter, why 
wasn't he trying to help Voldemort regain his strength?  part B.  If 
he wasn't trying to help Voldemort regain his strength, then he 
was probably under orders to watch Harry, and it would have had 
to be a very,very important order (WHY DID HE RESIGN?!).  Note 
that in GoF, Voldemort doesn't mention another Loyal supporter 
aside from Crouch Jr.  (or, he could have been talking about 
Lupin, but then why didn't he mention Crouch Jr.- doesn't make 
sense)<<
Pippin:
Even a tame werewolf couldn't tend to uglybaby!Voldemort. How 
would it milk Nagini? And Lupin isn't much of a potion maker, so 
he's probably not up to making the venom-unicorn's blood 
cocktail that uglybaby persists on, either. The Wolfsbane potion 
must be hard to come by in dark Albanian forests, anyway. As for 
possession, a werewolf would be regarded with suspicion, so 
even in human form Lupin wouldn't make a good vehicle. 
Imagine what would have happened if Lupin had shown up in a 
turban! <g>

I don't know whether the flesh of a faithful werewolf would have 
worked in the re-embodiment potion. But one must doubt it. I 
don't suppose Voldemort wanted to take any chance he'd be 
reincarnated as a werewolf!

<snip examples of Voldemort’s lying>

My answer:

Again, that’s not evidence. But as for Voldy saying stuff about werewolf cubs – what happens if a female werewolf becomes pregnant – from a man or from a wolf? Maybe you can get werewolf cubs…

Scott:
>>Sixth, and possibly the most important Point.  It is our choices 
that make us who we are- not our heritage, or ability, afflictions, 
and so on.  This is a central theme of the books.  If Lupin were 
evil, well, he'd just be another typical werewolf, wouldn't he?  The 
fact that Lupin is good, kind and dedicated person helps 
illustrate the aforementioned Theme to the reader.  Lupin turning 
out evil would go against the 'our choices make us who we are' 
idea that is so strongly presented.  Of course, he could turn out 
to be evil, and another werewolf who is truly good could be 
introduced into the story. <<



Pippin:
That's true only if Lupin is the only "monster"  in the books--but 
he isn't. There's Hagrid, Madame Maxime, Fleur, and very 
possibly Flitwick and Snape. I think, if my theory holds up, that 
JKR will make it very clear that Lupin is evil because he made a 
choice, however fraught,  to become a Voldemort supporter, not 
because the werewolf made him do it.   I see Snape as Lupin's 
necessary counterpart, who can't pretend to be kind or gentle or 
innocent, but is now trying, very hard, to be good.

<snip>

<snip more assumptions>

Me: 

I agree with Pippin that if JKR were ever to make Lupin evil, it would not be because he is a werewolf. But I think that what JKR is trying to do with Lupin is to show how prejudiced people are – how such a nice, sweet, kind, smart (oh, I’m starting my I Love Lupin song again… ILL, I say, ILL!) person is shunned because of what he is for a few hours every month. If he turned out to be a Mighty Evil Voldemort Supporter and we all found out that he’d been pretending all the while, it would have been against JKR’s philosophy, no matter what Lupin’s choices were or were not. 

And yet another thought. While Fake!Moody is cool, he isn’t really nice (Amazing Bouncing Ferrret, his conversations with Snape, etc.). Harry doesn’t think Moody is nice either – he constantly talks about the possibility of being transformed or cursed by him. Lupin, on the other hand, *is* extremely nice, Harry feels it, and I don’t think you can fake that kind of thing. In this case I’d trust my gut feeling, which is what I do. Besides, JKR said in an interview that Lupin was one of her favourite characters. I honestly don’t think that if Lupin were a Mighty Evil Voldemort Supporter and lied, cheated all his time at Hogwarts JKR would like him so much. One might love Voldy or Lucius Malfoy, but at least they don’t hide their evilness. 

Looking back on this all, I think that one of Pippin’s main arguments (the main one, actually) was that JKR wouldn’t create 2 characters with the same narrative function (Lupin and Sirius). I’d like to talk some more about this, since it’s important IMHO. I said something about this in my previous post - that we really shouldn’t make predictions about what JKR would or would not do. Why shouldn’t JKR give James 2 good friends, as she did with Harry? Besides, it would be even worse if she made Lupin evil – she’d have 2 of James’ friends traitors *and* 2 DADA teachers Mighty Evil Voldemort Supporters from the narrative point of view. I’d be really disappointed in both JKR and Dumbledore – with the former for using the same trick twice and with the latter for falling for that same trick twice. 

Well, I’m done. This is my longest post yet, and I thank those who’ve stayed with me. BTW, I’m really interested in how many people do think that Lupin is a Mighty Evil Voldemort Supporter… maybe we can have a poll?

Maria,

a bit sleepy and giddy from watching Emma and Much Ado About Nothing *both* 3 evenings in a row… I love Beatrice & Benedick! (thank goodness for winter break)



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