MadEye & Malfoy - James & Snape - Everyone & Umbridge

[darrin_burnett]

No: HPFGUIDX 68251

> 
> Tom responds:
> Perhaps he would have been fair if it had been Slytherin students 
> making the effort. Perhaps not. Either way, we couldn't possibly 
> know. What we do know is that he gave them a disproportionate 
amount of points and enabled Gryffindor to steal the house cup twice 
in a row.

Where my problem is, frankly, the word "steal," especially light of 
the events of Chamber of Secrets.

Harry, Ron and Hermione discover the location of a chamber that no 
teacher had ever found and only one student had found. Granted, 
Harry's Parselmouth was key to OPENING the thing, but they found the 
door without that unique skill.

Harry slays a monster possibly left behind by a Genocidal Maniac (if 
the legend is true) and definitely put to use by a Genocidal Maniac. 
The monster had killed one and maimed several others.

To me, the House Cup is just reward.

Obviously, from a Slyth point of view, it is stealing. Probably some 
Huffs and Ravens are torked too. But, again, had three kids from 
other houses done this, I don't see that D-Dore would have done any 
different.


> And the students know it, too. That's why Malfoy, at the end of 
GoF, 
> says something to the effect of `Big Deal. So Potter's Dumbledore's 
> favorite boy again.' Harry *is* Dumbledore's favorite boy, and 
> everyone knows it, including us. *That's* my point.

Yeah, but Draco also bitches about Hermione being the favorite of all 
the teachers, so we know he gets a touch of sour grapes from time to 
time, which impairs his credibility.

And, we also know that points are also generated from Quidditch. In 
PoA, it is the Quidditch final that tips it for Gryff. So, Malfoy had 
an equal chance to win the cup that year.  


> Tom replies:
> Yes, you're right, he is singled out. But on that note, how many 
> other students are as disrespectful of Snape as Harry is? None that 
> I can come up with... so, in many respects, Harry singles himself 
> out.

With the exception of the PoA Shack scene, when all rational 
discussion was pretty much out the window, I think it is rare that 
Harry disrespects him to his face.

He backtalks Snape in his office, but only after Snape is taunting 
him about his father, frankly, trying to get Harry to respond.

And he challenges Snape to tell him where Lupin is when Snape 
subtitutes in class. Snape, who has already shown that some students 
can come in late, while others can't (Malfoy gets a free pass in 
PoA), docks points for the offense.

And then, Snape proceeds to use the students to try to out Lupin. 
Sigh, it never ends with this guy.

You could argue that disrupting Snape's class in CoS so Hermione can 
get the potion ingredients is disrespectful, and I'd agree, but I 
would also point out that it isn't disrespect for disrespect sake.
 
> Tom replies:
> Well, let's take a look at this example here:
> 
> It's *not* okay for Snape to treat Harry like an arrogant celebrity-
> monger because of his father. So, is it therefore okay for Harry to 
> get the special treatment he gets from the other teachers (and 
> Dumbledore) who *liked* James and Lily so much? Or, is it okay for 
> Harry to get special treatment from the other teachers who feel bad 
> for what happened to him when he was a baby? 

McGonagall doesn't favor Harry because of his dad. She favors him 
because he can get around on a broomstick better than any Seeker 
since Charlie Weasley. Were Harry a clutz on a broom, he'd not have 
gotten that break from her, whoever his father was.

Not exactly noble, but I'd argue James and Lily have nothing to do 
with it.

Hagrid seems to favor Harry because he feels that bond with him, and 
Hagrid isn't a teacher until year 3 anyway.

Lupin, who would seem to favor Harry more than anyone, is actually 
the harshest with him outside of Snape, as we see when he takes the 
map from Harry.

Trelawney, in fact, uses Harry's past to make a bigger show in class, 
hardly favoritism.

Quirrell shows no favoritism. Lockhart singles Harry out to make 
Lockhart look good. Moody has his own purpose for favoring Harry, and 
as we see, it isn't favoritism at all.

Sprout and Flitwick might like Harry, but I don't see that it is 
because of James. At least, I see no canon evidence of that.

That leaves Dumbledore, who DOES provide Harry with the Invisibility 
Cloak, but otherwise refrains from bestowing rewards until Harry 
proves himself.

So, I challenge the notion that all the teachers, except perhaps 
Hagrid, favor Harry.

That leaves Snape, who DOES single Harry out because of who his 
father is (while ignoring that Harry's mother tried to help him)
 
 
> Neither is teaching a student a spell, and on that one, Darrin, I'm 
> surprised at you, you big canon buff. ;-) Please note that 
> canonically, we *do not* know that Snape's whisper to Draco in `The 
> Dueling Club' in CoS had anything to do with `serpensortia'. For 
all we know, Snape could have been commenting on Harry's hair or 
> Lockhart's robes.

Oh, all right. We don't KNOW, but I submit it is very, very 
likely. :) 


> Darrin wrote:
> You know why? Because Snape is an adult, allegedly. He SHOULD be 
> held to a different standard. And scars that are 25 years old have 
> more time to heal than wounds just days old.
> 
> I am tired of a teenager's behavior being compared to an adult's 
> behavior as if they are supposed to be equal.
>  
> Tom remarks:
> You're writing as though this is all taking place over coffee, or 
at the local bar, or as though it's some kind of childish spat on the 
> playground or on the sidewalk. Should adults generally behave 
better  than kids? Certainly. 
> 
> Harry is wrong to be so disrespectful of his teacher, because 
> independently of the situational specifics, it is unacceptable for 
a  student to be that rude to his teacher. He shouldn't get leeway on 
> the matter. Act like a student. Likewise, his teacher is wrong to 
> take out his frustrations on his student. And neither should Snape 
> get leeway on the matter. Act like a teacher.

Again, though, I would argue that Harry is not as disrespectful at 
first glance. Sure, he hates Snape, but it doesn't manifest itself 
all that much to Snape's face.

Just thought of another one, with Harry and Ron cursing at Snape 
after he insulted Hermione. Disrespectful, perhaps, but I'm sorry, 
Snape had THAT one coming.


> Tom scoffs:
> I have problems, in general, with Snape's attitude during this 
> whole `let's learn Occlumency' session. Why? Because this isn't a 
> school subject. This is work for the Order of the Phoenix. In MY 
> opinion, Harry shouldn't have to call Snape `sir' during these 
> sessions, because what he's learning has nothing to do with school -
> in fact, what he's learning detracts from valuable study time.
> 
> So, would it be unacceptable for Snape to refuse to teach Harry 
> Potions? Yes. Occlumency, or any other unrelated OoP course of 
> study? No. Again, IMO.

See, I'd argue Occlumency was more important than Potions, in this 
case. This is a direct request from Dumbledore and there is a real 
chance lives of the Order members are at stake. 

I didn't so much have a problem with Snape demanding the "sir" (if 
for no other reason that the "I'm going to hex Malfoy, SIR" line) but 
I got really torked at Snape insisting on Harry not using V-Mort.

> Tom repeats:
> Yes, it is wrong for Snape to have pre-judged Harry based on his 
> past dealings with his father. But in that light, so is it also 
> wrong for every teacher who liked James to give Harry special 
leeway because of it, and we all know that they do. Even Fudge did it 
in  PoA. Harry constantly gets special treatment because of stuff in 
his past for which he's not responsible. Good treatment, and bad 
> treatment.


Sorry, Tom, I need some canon references that teachers have actually 
done that. At most, I remember Flitwick getting excited at reading 
Harry's name, but I don't think Harry has gotten special treatment 
since. 

Darrin