[HPforGrownups] Good Slytherin (Was: Re: Thestrals and Slytherins)

[Kathryn Cawte]

No: HPFGUIDX 71319

 Darrin -

Academics have something to do with it as well, and again, when 
Slytherin's strategy, as seen by Draco, who must have learned it 
somewhere, is to engineer other houses losing points. When someone 
such as McGonagall is in Gryffindor, it's not tough. Decent, fair 
people are easy to manipulate.

Me -

I'm sorry I don't understand. Are you saying that the strategy draco learnt
is the reason they were so successful 
in the past? Because I don't see any evidence of that - it's not doing them
a lot of good right now after all is it?

And actually fair and decent people are quite hard to manipulate, it's
people who have an agenda who are easy to 
manipulate once you know what it is they desire.

Darrin

Ever seen Heathers? The ruling clique can be thought of as evil and 
still hold power. The ruling clique can be mistrusted and still hold 
power.

Me -

No I haven't. And I see no evidence at all that the Slytherins in general
have power and influence. *Draco* has influence 
but I am not talking about a specific individual but rather about the house
in general

Darrin -
Anyone who has won several years in a row, which means they are 
producing the alumni with the top resumes, and just increasing their 
influence, has clout. 

Me -

Rubbish. People will judge the students on their abilities, on their exam
results, on their house, perhaps even on their 
quidditch allegiance but the results of the House Cup are going to have no
influence outside of the school at all.

Darrin -

Because it's the right thing to do. Nothing more, nothing less.

Me -

You are advocating that they make a choice that takes a heck of a lot of
courage and could prove fatal. It may be the morally 
correct thing to do but very few people would actually make it. As history
shows most people faced with the choice to stand
up against a dictator (or would be dictator in Voldemort's case) instead
choose to keep their heads down and hope that they
survive. I admire Sirius greatly for being able to distance himself from his
family's views as he did. It takes real courage
to defy your family and friends and that is what the Slytherins would have
to do - at least Sirius could count on the support
of his friends. A Slytherin wouldn't have that option.

Voldemort has it easy when it comes to gaining supporters from Slytherin
house. They feel isolated and mistrusted, he offers 
them everything they want - power, acceptance, revenge (now I'm not saying
these are pure motives, I never did. In fact I 
specifically said that I wasn't saying they should be forgiven for acting
like this just that the WW should accept that it
bears some responsibility in this situation). Once they are in they realise
that turning muggle upside down may look like fun
but that reality is much harsher. They realise that believing in the
supremacy of purebloods is one thing but actually torturing
and killing is another matter entirely, but by then it's too late. they're
in and there's no way out.

Darrin -

If Snape truly has turned -- and in OoP there is enough shading to 
make that a question -- then that is what he did. He turned because 
it was the right thing to do.


Me -

You do see things in a very black and white manner don't you? Has no one
ever explained to yu that the world is made up of
shades of grey. Now I like Snape and I'm perfectly willing to believe that
he does what he does because it it the 'right'
thing to do but you can't back that staement up with canon at all. We have
no idea *what* his motives are. For all we know
he had a crush on Narcissa and he changed sides because he resents that
Lucius got the girl.

Darrin -
And if any Slytherin who doesn't agree with Draco's views -- which 
include, but are not limited to, GENOCIDE -- is swayed by the fact 
that Ron Weasley doesn't trust him or her, but screw it, D-Dore 
doesn't need those wimps anyway.

Me -

I'm not convinced that Draco has ever actually advocated killing all
muggleborns/muggles. He doesn't believe they belong at 
Hogwarts certainly, but I don't remember him actually espousing murder. the
closes I think he gets is when he predicts that
Hermione will be next when the basilisk is loose in CoS, which was actually
fairly accurate.

I repeat that because of the way things are a Slytherin is not going to risk
total estrangement for a group of people that 
hate him or her. 

Darrin -
When it comes time to stand and be counted, the Slyths will have to 
choose, and it will be THEIR choice and "well, the Gryffs didn't like 
me" ain't good enough.

Me -

Actually they quite probably won't have to choose. they'll stay silent, hope
everything calms down again and thank Merlin
that it's not them and their families being killed. Because that is what
normal people do - a few will risk their lives to
save others but most people will be more concerned with their own safety and
that of their families. And of those few people who
are heroic enough to risk death even fewer are likely to do it for people
who scorn and mistrust them.


Darrin -

Just Dumbledore's words. Again, if the mirror was all that, why 
bother with the other obstacles? 

And Quirrell was still there. We know V-Mort can "turn off" his 
active presence, or else Harry's scar would have been hurting all 
year. V-Mort take a nap, Quirrell gets the stone just for finding 
purposes, and all is well in V-Mort's world.

Me -

Actually the mirror wasn't there till sometime after christmas and the other
obstacles were set up sometime before 
halloween (presumably as soon as Hagrid brought the Stone to Hogwarts).

And I don't believe we do know that Voldemort could turn himself off. harry
only feels a connection when Voldemort
has some kind of strong emotion

Darrin -

They weren't wrong. V-Mort was soon to be standing in front of the 
mirror and was pondering what to do. That can't be a good thing, no 
matter what. So, McGonagall didn't even consider the possibility that 
these kids might be onto something and post an extra guard that night

Me -

They were wrong because the stone wasn't in danger and it certainly wasn't
in danger from Snape which is what they believed

Darrin -
And they had evidence. Hagrid had given up the secret of Fluffy, 
which means someone was making an attempt on the stone. They knew 
Snape was talking to Quirrell, and they misinterpreted that, but had 
McGonagall heard it, she might have realized that whatever Snape was 
doing, it wasn't working. It all adds up to a high-speed owl to D-
Dore to see what to do -- which the kids had to do, not McG -- and he 
would have come racing back.

Me -

How do we know that she didn't know about Snape's suspicions? 

Darrin -

And pointing this out did not insinuate at all that poor Quirrell 
would somehow have been saved if Harry hadn't gone down there. 

Me -

My exact words were -
"Because of their
actions two of them ended up in the hospital wing (at least I assume Ron was
hospitalized at least briefly), Neville was hexed and Quirrel died (now I'm
not saying that Quirrel could have been saved by this point but I guess we
ll never know)."
So no it wasn't an insinuation that Quirrel would have been saved it was an
observation that his survival was a possibility
without Harry's interference and it was. he died because he touched Harry
therefore if harry hadn't have been there he 
might or might not have died we have no way of knowing

Darrin -
Even though Snape had been confronting him from Halloween on, Snape 
and D-Dore hadn't made a move to try to "save" Quirrell.

Me -

I don't think they knew he was possessed. I think they thought he was
possibly up to something but I doubt they'd have let
him run around the school if they'd known he had a passenger.

Darrin -
Good people need not apologize for defending themselves against evil 
people. If the evil people get hurt, well, them's the breaks.

Me -

We have no idea whether or not Quirrel was evil. Quirrell was actually heard
arguing with Voldemort at one stage (even though
they didn't realise that's what he was doing) so he was clearly trying to
resist Voldemort. No for all we know Quirrell was
an entirely innocent party. You seem incapable of seeing shades of grey, as
I mentioned before, everyone is either a black hat
or a white hat, entirely good or entirely evil. Well I'm sorry but the world
just doesn't work like that.

Darrin -
If Ron and Harry hadn't gone to Lockhart to ask for his help, he 
never would have lost his memory, so in that case, Ron and Harry's 
respect for teachers cost a man his memory.

Me -

Well I don't think they shoudl have dragged him with them down to the CoS
but only because he was a complete waste of space and 
they'd have been better off without him. Lockhart was responsible for his
own actions, Quirrell quite probably wasn't. Harry
was the only person who could open the Chamber so he had to be there, he
didn't need to be in the room with the Stone.

Darrin

Draco got away with stealing and flying without supervision. That's a 
reward. Harry's SKILL was rewarded, not his rulebreaking. If Draco 
had flown like that, maybe Snape would have seen it and made Draco a 
seeker.

Me -

Not being punished is not the same as being rewarded. Draco gained no
benefit from his actions therefore he was not rewarded.
He simply escaped justice. As I suggested earlier Harry should have got his
place on the quidditch team but he should have been
punished as well. It is perfectly possible to do both. Instead he escaped
punishment, got his place on the team *and* got given
an expensive broom.
Also draco was not caught and let off, he simply escaped notice. i don't
expect the staff to be able to know about every 
infraction of the rules - I expect them to discipline the students who do
get caught.


Darrin
-- The Spoiled Brat Members of The Ruling Cliques of The High School 
would be a great name for a band.

Me -

It really wouldn't

K