Sirius and Molly...

[annemehr]

No: HPFGUIDX 72002

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dan Feeney" <dark30 at v...> 
wrote:

> Just curious, what about my idea that Molly harbours guilt for the 
> jeopardy in which she has placed her family, and feels shame for 
this 
> tiny shred of guilt, by previously associating with HP, and now 
being 
> part of his so-called high security team? It did seem to make her 
> weaken at the boggart, that and the fact that they have left The 
> Burrow (they are not burrowed in anymore, the family is breaking 
up, 
> they fear, because of Percy, whose feelings will already be known 
to 
> his parents, long before Ron gets his letter.) Am I completely off 
> here? Did Molly act to HP in relation to her own offspring the 
same 
> way she acted in relation before? I mean, she never quite doted, 
or 
> did so only briefly, but in OOP, I detected differences. Details 
> later.

Annemehr:
I guess I will need to read your details, then.  What I saw was 
consistent with the Molly of the previous books, although with only 
two reads of OoP under my belt, I can't pretend to be truly familiar 
with everything in it yet.  That Molly might worry about the danger 
of associating her family with Harry Potter and then shame for those 
feelings seems quite reasonable.  I could interpret her boggart's 
forms that way, but I don't think it's necessary.  She's lived 
through a reign of terror before, she and her family are endangered 
apart from Harry by their involvement in the Order, and no other 
explanation is needed for the boggart.  It is the presence of the 
Weasleys and Hermione at Grimmauld Place that supports your theory 
better, I think: they are not there to protect Harry, they must be 
there because those so closely associated with Harry need 
protection; that is, the children are all there to be protected, and 
Molly and Arthur will naturally help do the protecting as most of 
the children are their own.  I will just repeat, though, that I 
don't see anything in Molly's actions that shows guilt for 
associating her family with Harry or shame for feeling this way.

To support my statement that Molly's attitude toward Harry has not 
changed, I recall that in PoA, Molly did not want Harry to know that 
Sirius had (as they believed) betrayed Harry's family.  That an 
escaped murderer was after Harry was not something she felt he 
needed to know, even though he would have been the one most directly 
involved.  It was the job of the adults, and the adults alone, to 
protect Harry and deal with Black.  In OoP, Molly does not wish to 
treat Fred and George, who are of age, as adults, so it is hardly 
surprising that she continues to treat Harry as a child.  I thought 
I did also see her dote on him, although everything was colored by 
the general tension of the house (caused partly by the "darkness" of 
the house itself and partly by the fact that they had fled to it to 
hide out).  The changes I saw, actually, were in Harry, who seems to 
feel less comfortable with her affection (especially after visiting 
Arthur in St Mungo's, when Harry felt responsible for his being 
attacked).

As to Sirius' scene in the Common Room fire, I will quote (Ch. 17):

"First of all, Ron [said Sirius] -- I've sworn to pass on a message 
from your mother."

"Oh, yeah?" said Ron, sounding apprehensive.

"She says on no account whatsoever are you to take part in an 
illegal secret Defense Against the Dark Arts group.  She says you'll 
be expelled for sure and your future will be ruined.  She says there 
will be plenty of time to learn how to defend youself later and that 
you are too young to be worrying about that right now.  She also" -- 
Sirius's eyes turned to the other two -- "advises Harry and Hermione 
not to proceed with the group though she accepts that she has no 
authority over either of them and simply begs them to remember that 
she has their best interests at heart.  She would have written all 
this to you, but if the owl had been intercepted you'd all have been 
in real trouble, and she can't say it for herself because she's on 
duty tonight."


Dan continues: 
> If what the fiery head of Sirius says is true (and he is being 
quite 
> fair in letting them know Molly's feelings, isn't he?) she opposes 
> Harry directly for the first time, and Hermione a second time 
ever, 
> over the DA, though, if Black is to be believed, she phrases it 
> pretty carefully - as if she were very much NOT HP's guardian, or 
> Hermione's. (Though, to be fair, she is in practise guardian, at 
HQ 
> anyway.)

Annemehr again:
It seems to me that Molly and Sirius have had a discussion over this 
(how could they not have?), and, as Sirius says, Molly *accepts* 
(reluctantly, I'm thinking) that she has no authority over Harry and 
Hermione.  I am sure that she wishes she does.  I still see her as 
the same protective mother she was in PoA in the Leaky Cauldron, 
arguing with Arthur over whether Harry should be told about Sirius 
or not.  IMO, she would have loved to have been able to address 
Ron's part of the message to all three of them.

Dan:
> Now, unless we accept the list argument that HP is an 
> arrogant, ignorant and interfering simp who creates chaos and 
danger 
> under some ethical guise, this opposition to the DA can only been 
> seen as not wanting to bring the apparently not yet hopeless 
struggle 
> between OOP and MoM to the surface, at such a time as it would 
> strengthen the so-called real enemy, LV and the DE.

Annemehr:
The *list* argument that HP is a what?  You've lost me there...
I saw Molly's position as one of primarily wanting to protect the 
children, but yes, you are right, she may also (but not "only") not 
want them to be upsetting the applecart re the MoM, either.

<snip>

Dan:
> Don't get me wrong, I don't view Molly's uncertainty, or is it 
> ambiguity, or second-guessing, as terrible. It is, however, 
perhaps 
> closer to a flaw than I originally thought, reading this thread. 
That 
> she doesn't fight her natural response to protecting HP is what 
> allows that flaw to be her humanity. And besides, OOP's obeisance 
to 
> AD's wishes rings just a little too much like LV and the DEs.

Annemehr:
So you're saying her ambiguity lies in both wanting to overprotect 
Harry while at the same time feeling some guilt about endangering 
her family more by involving him in it?  Although wanting to protect 
all of them is not a flaw, it is true that she *needs* to begin to 
moderate this impulse with a consideration of the bigger picture 
which includes the fact that Voldemort's new reign of terror is 
going to affect every last one of them even if 1)they never so much 
as speak to Harry again and 2)the children are never told another 
word about what's happening.

As for the Orders "obeisance" to Dumbledore, I'll just note that 
their loyalty is freely given although, since Molly said in Ch. 5 
that Dumbledore "must have his reasons" for not wanting Harry to 
know too much, it does seem that he is still rather closed-mouthed 
to more than just Harry.  However, just because the Order has a 
leader is no reason to compare it to Voldemort's DEs, although they 
do rely on Dumbledore immensely (and it is possilble to wonder if 
they don't rely on him too much -- and how much vital information 
would die with him if Dumbledore were killed?).

Dan:
> But I 
> guess that's all over now - no more hiding behind the desire to 
> protect the children. Whatever's coming, it's coming fast, and I 
> expect more than a few character flaws will be drawn to our 
attention 
> in rather garish light.

Annemehr:
Yes, Fred and George are sure to be members of the Order by the 
beginning of the next book, if not already, and I don't see Harry 
keeping his secret from Ron and Hermione for too long (although he 
will tell them in person, so that will delay it a bit).  
Interestingly, I wonder if in book 6 Harry will actually begin 
trying to overprotect Ron and Hermione now?  After all, he feels set 
apart from everyone after hearing the prophecy; that's sure to 
affect his relationship even with R & H.

As far as character flaws, well yes, the pressure of events is sure 
to bring them out along with character strengths, as we have seen in 
OoP (where we saw new strengths in Ginny, Neville and McGonagall).  
As far as Snape goes, though, I have no real guesses -- time will 
tell. 

Annemehr