[HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: James( was:Two-way Mirror and other frustrations)

[Jenserai Bariman]

No: HPFGUIDX 65197

Valky wrote:
>I have given myself a difficult task, to exhume the ghost of nobility
>from 15yr old James in this scene. It is buried beneath layers of
>point of fact and designer perception in the negative.
>By that statement I do not mean to give support to the theory that
>the memory is "Snape perception" altered. I do not think it is. I
>believe it happened exactly that way, and can still see James
>mistakenly, thinking his choice was noble and would earn him respect
>from followers of a righteous creed.

Me:
You can see whatever you like. No one can stop you. I choose to base my view 
of the incident on the given canon.


>Nowhere in that book does it prove that James
>hated ONLY Snape. In point of fact it has a direct statement to the
>contrary, when Lily accuses him of hexing anyone who annoys him, and
>Sirius admits he hexed people for the fun of it. (NB. He *hexed* not
>*cursed* are we getting a small hint about the line between Dark and
>Light?)

Perhaps, but I have yet to see a clear differentiation of "hex" and "curse".

>Neither of these statements however *truly* reflect James choice of
>victim. Or his mind in doing so. They are speculatives from observers
>and so cannot rule out entirely James percieving himself acting on a
>noble principle.

This is where I feel your argument is lacking. If we were to disregard all 
"speculatives from observers", most of the theorizing on this list would be 
effectively shut down. This is not real life, it is a book, and in a book, 
lines are put in for a reason. I have to accept Black's and Lily's 
assessment of why James hexed people. Why? Because they spent seven years in 
school with him and plenty of time to find a pattern in who go the wrong end 
of James' wand. Furthermore, Black was James' friend and I would assume that 
he would want to cast James' in the best light possible. The last part has 
been debated, but I think Black is the type to want Harry to continue 
idolizing James and aspiring to be like him (note: the last part is 
supported very nicely by Black's disappointed tone when he said Harry was 
not as much like James as he thought).

>As ridiculously dishonourable as his actions may
>have been. We are not told James' truth here.

So, James' explanation that Snape "exists" is not his truth? I'm not asking 
you to re-state your views on that subject. I've heard them. You are simply 
choosing to ignore a mountain of canon just because it doesn't fit with your 
vision of Saint James.

>Besides, Lily never actually *hated* him. That, speaks multitudes for
>his character away from this scene. If he was as bad as she claimed
>in her heated frustration at him that day she would probably be
>turned off for life.

We know almost nothing about Lily and I would recommended hesitating a good 
long while before presuming to know how her mind works.

Thats a weak argument, but it holds a few drops
>on its own so i'll shove it in here for an extra half mark.
>

I assure you, it does indeed hold a few drops of _something_.

>And in defense I must point out that we have plenty of evidence of
>James choices and sense of discernment in that scene. It is not
>punctuated like the story of his indiscretion is, so, it is ohh too
>easy to gloss over. We are being decieved about James' mind and heart
>if we don't look at his choices outside of the bullying.
>

Tell me about this canon for his sense of discernment. I must have missed 
that. I remember that he bullied someone who reportedly was very interested 
in the Dark Arts and knew a lot of curses. Then again, Harry knows a lot of 
curses.

As for James' choices outside of bullying, let's see...
He tried to blackmail a girl into dating him and he gave all appearances of 
being conceited. Not very nice.

In his favor, he was in the Order of the Phoenix. Fine, good, but so was 
Pettigrew. He defied Voldemort three times. Interesting, but we have no idea 
what exactly that involved. In any case, he didn't join Voldemort, that's 
points to him. However, staying on the side of light doesn't necessarily 
mean you are a good person.

He died for his wife and child. Very honorable, it seems he was truly in 
love with Lily.

I don't mean to belittle his actions after he left Hogwarts, it is possible 
he really did grow out of his bullying stage (though there isn't enough 
canon to definitively say that). Whether or not he did, however, does not in 
anyway lessen the severity of what he did.

Fitz:
> > 3. Should a person "earn" respect because he hated another person?
> > I would say a person should earn respect because he had done
> > something good, or that he had stopped something bad from
> > happening. But for hating someone? I do not think so.

Valky:
>That precisely is the lesson James needed to learn after his 5th year
>at Hogwarts.
>Not that he was a bad person, but that he had made a big mistake and
>respect does not come from your choice to hate something, no matter
>what it be.
>I again insist James was good inside and was acting on his principle
>of righteousness in the scene. He learned that dishonour came not
>only from a choice of evil but from evil choices as well.
>Snape chose evil. James made an evil choice. In case you needed
>clarification.

Oh, no. Here we go: Snape did not choose evil. He didn't even make an evil 
choice. See, Snape was also a Saint and was only interested in the Dark Arts 
because he wanted to learn how to defeat Voldemort. So he learned all the 
curses he could and gave every impression that he was DE in training and 
when he left Hogwarts, he joined up with old Voldy so he could be a spy for 
Dumbledore. <--- Observe sarcasm.
Actually, this is more likely than your theory because we know he really 
_did_ become a spy.

>No never. James made the mistake of thinking it was commendable to
>hate evil.

Again, there isn't enough canon to say Snape was evil at fifteen. James 
hated the Dark Arts. Snape was interested in the Dark Arts. That does not 
mean that James can hate Snape too.

>But hate is an evil in itself. One choice to hate can undo
>all good. The road is paved with good intentions and it leads where?
>James' wanted people to know he loved good. He wanted to be reknowned
>for loving good. That is why he chose to taunt Snape when he saw him.

Can we please introduce even the tiniest bit of canon into the argument? I 
know there has been much spinning in these debates but enough is enough. 
This is wild speculation and it hasn't a leg to stand on. You can accuse me 
of the same thing in some of my earlier posts if you like, but since I was 
called on it the first time I've begun labeling those theories as what they 
are: completely unsubstantiated and just something I threw together for my 
own amusement.


>IMHO you call someone "Snivellus" because they have allowed
>themselves the indignity of being enslaved to someone elses
>principles.

Well IMHO, you call someone "Snivellus" because they are prone to colds. And 
I think MHO is as good as yours, and both views are equally lacking in 
canon.

>Ok in closing I will say that James' heart is not cold to Snapes
>suffering in this scene. But save the pointage for a later debate I
>am running out of killers here.
>

Ahem.

-Jens

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail