OOP: James( was:Two-way Mirror and other frustrations)

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 65256

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jenserai Bariman" 
<jenserai at h...> wrote:
> Valky wrote:
> >I have given myself a difficult task, to exhume the ghost of 
nobility
> >from 15yr old James in this scene. It is buried beneath layers of
> >point of fact and designer perception in the negative.
> >By that statement I do not mean to give support to the theory that
> >the memory is "Snape perception" altered. I do not think it is. I
> >believe it happened exactly that way, and can still see James
> >mistakenly, thinking his choice was noble and would earn him 
respect from followers of a righteous creed.
> 
> Me:
> You can see whatever you like. No one can stop you. I choose to 
base my view of the incident on the given canon.

Ohh nasty, Jens. "....there was a flash of light and a gash appeared 
on the side of _Valky_'s face, spattering _her_ robes with blood."
Actually I am basing my argument on canon.
""All right Snivellus" said James loudly.
Snape reacted so fast....<snip negative glazing over the next fact> 
dropping his bag he plunged his hand inside his robes and his wand 
was halfway into the air when James shouted "Expelliarmus"."

Draw Mcgraw.

> >Nowhere in that book does it prove that James
> >hated ONLY Snape. 
Sirius admits he hexed people for the fun of it. (NB. He *hexed* not
> >*cursed* are we getting a small hint about the line between Dark 
and Light?)
> 
> Perhaps, but I have yet to see a clear differentiation of "hex" 
and "curse".

Ok a clear differentiation. There is none. Your point.
EN GUARDE

 
> >Neither of these statements however *truly* reflect James choice of
> >victim. Or his mind in doing so. They are speculatives from 
observers and so cannot rule out entirely James percieving himself 
acting on a noble principle.
> 
> This is where I feel your argument is lacking. If we were to 
disregard all "speculatives from observers", most of the theorizing 
on this list would be effectively shut down. This is not real life, 
it is a book, and in a book, lines are put in for a reason. I have to 
accept Black's and Lily's assessment of why James hexed people. Why? 
Because they spent seven years in school with him and plenty of time 
> to find a pattern in who go the wrong end of James' wand. 
>

I have not asked for a disregard of the observations of the 
spectators. If they are put in context, however, they appear to be 
reflecting the feelings of the party who spoke them and cannot be 
therefore objective.
Show me those same comments in context that is not "subjective 
because I dislike what I see him doing" Lily or "I blame myself" 
Lupin. The lines around the statements are also part of the book and 
*there* for a reason.

 >As ridiculously dishonourable as his actions may
> >have been. We are not told James' truth here.
> 
> So, James' explanation that Snape "exists" is not his truth? I'm 
not asking you to re-state your views on that subject. I've heard 
them. You are simply choosing to ignore a mountain of canon just 
because it doesn't fit with your  vision of Saint James.
>
>
"..what has he done to you?". 
"Well" said James appearing to deliberate the point " its more the 
fact that he exists, if you know what I mean."
Ahh very true very true, James. Um, sorry what did you mean?
 
> >Besides, Lily never actually *hated* him. That, speaks multitudes 
for his character away from this scene. If he was as bad as she 
claimed in her heated frustration at him that day she would probably 
be turned off for life.
> 
> We know almost nothing about Lily and I would recommended 
hesitating a good long while before presuming to know how her mind 
works.
>

I presume nothing.

> 
> Thats a weak argument, but it holds a few drops
> >on its own so i'll shove it in here for an extra half mark.
> >
> I assure you, it does indeed hold a few drops of _something_.
> 

Ooh, low blow. I should have expected it though. The Snape/James/Lily 
story remains at this time a most mysterious secret. As a speculator 
of who will in the end be proved the best and fairest 15 yr old of 
the two boys my money is on James. That is all.


> >And in defense I must point out that we have plenty of evidence of
> >James choices and sense of discernment in that scene. It is not
> >punctuated like the story of his indiscretion is, so, it is ohh too
> >easy to gloss over. We are being decieved about James' mind and 
heart if we don't look at his choices outside of the bullying.
> >
> 
> Tell me about this canon for his sense of discernment. I must have 
missed that. I remember that he bullied someone who reportedly was 
very interested in the Dark Arts and knew a lot of curses. Then 
again, Harry knows a lot of curses.

Ok I'll give you a little one because I am _really_ a nice person.

"Go out with me and I'll never lay a wand on old Snivelly again." 
James.
"Snape was a special case. I mean he never missed an opportunity to 
curse James." Lupin
Which does James hold in higher esteem Pride or Love?

"I don't need help from filthy little mudbloods like her!" Severus
and, ahem, Snape.



<snip consideration of the boys as adults>
Thats another debate here I am debating only whether James was 
heartless and vile on the day in question in addition to him being an 
obvious idiot.

> > > 3. Should a person "earn" respect because he hated another 
person?
> > > .
> Valky:
> >That precisely is the lesson James needed to learn after his 5th 
year at Hogwarts.
> >Not that he was a bad person, but that he had made a big mistake 
and respect does not come from your choice to hate something, no 
matter what it be.
> 
> Oh, no. Here we go: Snape did not choose evil. He didn't even make 
an evil choice.
>See, Snape was also a Saint and was only interested in the Dark Arts 
> because he wanted to learn how to defeat Voldemort. So he learned 
all the curses he could and gave every impression that he was DE in 
training and when he left Hogwarts, he joined up with old Voldy so he 
could be a spy for Dumbledore. <--- Observe sarcasm.

Sorry I fail to see how this is an argument.

> Actually, this is more likely than your theory because we know he 
really _did_ become a spy.

Oh I see now, Sirius and James may have been wrong in thinking that 
Snape was not an honourable person because he dabbled in dark arts 
and sucked up to bad guys.(see future snivellus argument)
And I was definately wrong in thinking that character like James and 
Sirius held Honour in any esteem.

> >No never. James made the mistake of thinking it was commendable to
> >hate evil.
> 
> Again, there isn't enough canon to say Snape was evil at fifteen. 
James hated the Dark Arts. Snape was interested in the Dark Arts. 
That does not mean that James can hate Snape too.

Of course it doesn't James' mistake was, not drawing that line.

> 
> >But hate is an evil in itself. One choice to hate can undo
> >all good. The road is paved with good intentions and it leads 
where? James' wanted people to know he loved good. He wanted to be 
reknowned for loving good. That is why he chose to taunt Snape when 
he saw him.
> 
> Can we please introduce even the tiniest bit of canon into the 
argument? I know there has been much spinning in these debates but 
enough is enough. This is wild speculation and it hasn't a leg to 
stand on. You can accuse me of the same thing in some of my earlier 
posts if you like, but since I was called on it the first time I've 
begun labeling those theories as what they are: completely 
unsubstantiated and just something I threw together for my 
> own amusement.

Again you insult me:(
I like that people are debating character. I love JK's complex 
realistic characters.
Character development is quite a read between the lines thing so I am 
afraid that canon *interpretation* is all that can be debated. Are 
you not having any fun?

> >IMHO you call someone "Snivellus" because they have allowed
> >themselves the indignity of being enslaved to someone elses
> >principles.
> 
> Well IMHO, you call someone "Snivellus" because they are prone to 
colds. And I think MHO is as good as yours, and both views are 
equally lacking in canon.
>
Ok Ok no canon. But I think the proneness to colds is more 
appropriately conferred upon a name like "snuffles" than "snivellus"
Oh well, you can have that point on technicality. 

> 
> >Ok in closing I will say that James' heart is not cold to Snapes
> >suffering in this scene. But save the pointage for a later debate I
> >am running out of killers here.
> >
> 
> Ahem


I thought I closed well! :b
Ok.
Lily, whose furious expression twitched for an instant as though she 
was going to smile, said, "Let him down!"
"Certainly" said James.....:Snape fell in a crumpled 
heap...blah..blah...
Lily had looked amused and James dropped him.
Further..Lily shouted, she had her own wand out now. James and Sirius 
eyed it warily. 
"Ah, Evans don't make me Hex you" said James earnestly.

Snape drew his wand Lily drew her wand and Sirius has said.
"You are less like your father than I thought Harry....the risk would 
have been what made it fun for James."
The *risk* made it *fun*.
He was having plenty of fun fighting Snape thats for sure. I don't 
suppose that means anything does it?


 



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