[HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: James( was:Two-way Mirror and other frustrations)

[Jenserai Bariman]

No: HPFGUIDX 65320

Valky:
>Ohh nasty, Jens. "....there was a flash of light and a gash appeared
>on the side of _Valky_'s face, spattering _her_ robes with blood."
>Actually I am basing my argument on canon.
>""All right Snivellus" said James loudly.
>Snape reacted so fast....<snip negative glazing over the next fact>
>dropping his bag he plunged his hand inside his robes and his wand
>was halfway into the air when James shouted "Expelliarmus"."
>
>Draw Mcgraw.
>

Oh, yes, I'm one eeeeeeevil little future Death Eater, aren't I.
About that quote:
The last time I saw the sort of "snipping" you are doing was when I was 
reading a history of the Inquisition which was written in favor of the 
Catholic Church.
No matter that you've stripped Snape of what Harry thinks is his reason for 
reacting quickly still fails to support your argument. Snape has quick 
reflexes. Yay for Snape?

>I have not asked for a disregard of the observations of the
>spectators. If they are put in context, however, they appear to be
>reflecting the feelings of the party who spoke them and cannot be
>therefore objective.
>Show me those same comments in context that is not "subjective
>because I dislike what I see him doing" Lily or "I blame myself"
>Lupin. The lines around the statements are also part of the book and
>*there* for a reason.

So basically what you're saying is that the both of them are painting James 
in a worse light than he should be painted in?
Every word that comes out a persons mouth is based on the feelings of the 
speaker. Nothing spoken or thought is objective. In this instance I choose 
to believe that Lupin and Lily are right that James did not have a good 
reason for hexing various of his peers. I believe Lupin especially because 
James' behavior reflects directly on himself as James' friend and as a 
prefect, and as JKR said, "he likes to be liked".

>
> >As ridiculously dishonourable as his actions may
> > >have been. We are not told James' truth here.
> >
> > So, James' explanation that Snape "exists" is not his truth? I'm
>not asking you to re-state your views on that subject. I've heard
>them. You are simply choosing to ignore a mountain of canon just
>because it doesn't fit with your  vision of Saint James.
> >
> >
>"..what has he done to you?".
>"Well" said James appearing to deliberate the point " its more the
>fact that he exists, if you know what I mean."
>Ahh very true very true, James. Um, sorry what did you mean?

Sirius Black existed right then too and I didn't see James hexing him. "He 
exists" is a common excuse used by bullies who simply can't think of a 
single good reason why they don't like someone.

> > Tell me about this canon for his sense of discernment. I must have
>missed that. I remember that he bullied someone who reportedly was
>very interested in the Dark Arts and knew a lot of curses. Then
>again, Harry knows a lot of curses.
>
>Ok I'll give you a little one because I am _really_ a nice person.
>
>"Go out with me and I'll never lay a wand on old Snivelly again."
>James.

I cannot believe you are using _that_ quote as a tribute to James' good 
character.

>"Snape was a special case. I mean he never missed an opportunity to
>curse James." Lupin
>Which does James hold in higher esteem Pride or Love?
>

Pride. He did quit "hexing people just for the fun of it", but didn't stop 
with Snape. And "she didn't know too much about it". Do you really think she 
would have been all that pleased if she had found out? Had love really been 
the most important to him he would not have been hiding things from his 
girlfriend.

>"I don't need help from filthy little mudbloods like her!" Severus
>and, ahem, Snape.

Yes, Snape was wrong to call her a mudblood. He was not justified in doing 
this. However he was already humiliated and the interference of a girl at 
that point would have been welcomed by no teenaged boy I have ever met. As 
far as status with the other Slytherins went, I highly doubt her being a 
muggleborn Gryffindor helped.

> > > > 3. Should a person "earn" respect because he hated another
>person?
> > > > .
> > Valky:
> > >That precisely is the lesson James needed to learn after his 5th
>year at Hogwarts.
> > >Not that he was a bad person, but that he had made a big mistake
>and respect does not come from your choice to hate something, no
>matter what it be.
> >
> > Oh, no. Here we go: Snape did not choose evil. He didn't even make
>an evil choice.
> >See, Snape was also a Saint and was only interested in the Dark Arts
> > because he wanted to learn how to defeat Voldemort. So he learned
>all the curses he could and gave every impression that he was DE in
>training and when he left Hogwarts, he joined up with old Voldy so he
>could be a spy for Dumbledore. <--- Observe sarcasm.
>
>Sorry I fail to see how this is an argument.

*exasperated huff*
It's as much an argument as what yours is!

> > Actually, this is more likely than your theory because we know he
>really _did_ become a spy.
>
>Oh I see now, Sirius and James may have been wrong in thinking that
>Snape was not an honourable person because he dabbled in dark arts
>and sucked up to bad guys.(see future snivellus argument)

Precisely. *imperious nod* We now know that Snape is a very good actor, and 
he could have spent his entire seven years at Hogwarts practicing. As for 
the sucking up to bad guys part, I'll take the snivellus argument up here:

> > >IMHO you call someone "Snivellus" because they have allowed
> > >themselves the indignity of being enslaved to someone elses
> > >principles.
> >
> > Well IMHO, you call someone "Snivellus" because they are prone to
>colds. And I think MHO is as good as yours, and both views are
>equally lacking in canon.
> >
>Ok Ok no canon. But I think the proneness to colds is more
>appropriately conferred upon a name like "snuffles" than "snivellus"
>Oh well, you can have that point on technicality.

Apparently we're down to Snape being evil because he was interested in the 
dark arts. Before I believe that this is cause for Snape to be seen as 
"evil" I want either canon that proves the Dark Arts are evil and can only 
be used for evil, or canon for exactly what Snape did with them that was so 
bad. And the cut he gave James does not count, we don't know that it had any 
more to do with the Dark Arts than whatever that spell Ron used on the lace 
on his dress robes was. It could have been the same spell.

>And I was definately wrong in thinking that character like James and
>Sirius held Honour in any esteem.

Right again. Attacking someone from behind isn't honorable in my book.

> > >But hate is an evil in itself. One choice to hate can undo
> > >all good. The road is paved with good intentions and it leads
>where? James' wanted people to know he loved good. He wanted to be
>reknowned for loving good. That is why he chose to taunt Snape when
>he saw him.
> >
> > Can we please introduce even the tiniest bit of canon into the
>argument? I know there has been much spinning in these debates but
>enough is enough. This is wild speculation and it hasn't a leg to
>stand on. You can accuse me of the same thing in some of my earlier
>posts if you like, but since I was called on it the first time I've
>begun labeling those theories as what they are: completely
>unsubstantiated and just something I threw together for my
> > own amusement.
>
>Again you insult me:(
>I like that people are debating character. I love JK's complex
>realistic characters.
>Character development is quite a read between the lines thing so I am
>afraid that canon *interpretation* is all that can be debated. Are
>you not having any fun?

If I weren't having fun I wouldn't be here. I would be sleeping. *Tries to 
avoid looking at the clock*. I'm sorry about the excessive use of sarcasm 
and all that. I shouldn't read fanfic and debate at the same time, it gets 
me too emotionally involved.

However, back to the point, my problem with your argument is that you read 
so much _between_ the lines that you don't seem to be reading the lines at 
all. Lines are good because they give you something solid to work with. If 
we didn't have the lines every argument would end with "I'm right!!" "No I'M 
right!".


>Ok.
>Lily, whose furious expression twitched for an instant as though she
>was going to smile, said, "Let him down!"
>"Certainly" said James.....:Snape fell in a crumpled
>heap...blah..blah...
>Lily had looked amused and James dropped him.

And here I was thinking it was because she _told_ James to let him down...

>Further..Lily shouted, she had her own wand out now. James and Sirius
>eyed it warily.
>"Ah, Evans don't make me Hex you" said James earnestly.
>
>Snape drew his wand Lily drew her wand and Sirius has said.
>"You are less like your father than I thought Harry....the risk would
>have been what made it fun for James."
>The *risk* made it *fun*.
>He was having plenty of fun fighting Snape thats for sure. I don't
>suppose that means anything does it?

So this whole thing was because he wanted to piss Lily off? I thought it was 
because Snape was a slimy little Death Eater in training and James hated 
evil things? Or was it simply an exceptional opportunity for James? Beat 
down evil and get Evans mad at the same time, two-birds-with-one-stone?

If so, James' mind seems to work backwards. "I should be as cruel as 
possible to anything that seems like it might not be as good and honorable 
as myself, thus not only bringing myself to their level - or below - but 
running the risk of pushing someone that might not have turned out bad over 
the edge, _and_ I should try to get the girl I like to hate me enough to 
cast hurt me."

I realize a lot of teenaged boys are idiots, but I've never met one _that_ 
stupid. I know about the whole "boy likes girl so boy teases girl" thing, 
but I think this is taking it a bit far.

I think I've just found where my biggest disagreement with your position is. 
You say James was really a good and honorable person, but that he was going 
about expressing his goodness and his honor in the wrong way by bullying 
people. In my opinion, someone like this is as bad as what it is they hate, 
good intentions be damned. It's how a person acts that counts, and James was 
acting like a bully.

> > >Ok in closing I will say that James' heart is not cold to Snapes
> > >suffering in this scene. But save the pointage for a later debate I
> > >am running out of killers here.
> > >
> >
> >Ahem
>
>I thought I closed well! :b

Sorry! *somewhat chagrined look* I was implying that I didn't feel very 
"killed", and I shouldn't have, I should have just left it. Like I said 
though, I was getting too emotionally involved.

Do you think we could call a truce? I think I've used all my canons several 
times over in the past two days and it's getting repetitive. You have 
certainly made me respect you for your skill in debate if not got me to 
believe your argument has any merit to it. I hope I have had the same effect 
on you, although I don't know, I did sort of lose my temper. I don't usually 
do that.

I'd like to hear what you have to say about my paragraph above your "Ok in 
closing...". Did I get your argument right there; is that, fundamentally, 
where we disagree? If so, I have a proposition. But I want to hear your 
answer first.

-Jens

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