[HPforGrownups] Is Snape unfair with House Points? (WAS Re: Teacher Ratings (Was: Why I hate Hag

[Ladi lyndi]

No: HPFGUIDX 56764

--- Tom  wrote:
> Earlier in the same scene, Harry snidely
> replies to Snape:
> 
> "I don't know," said Harry quietly. "I think
> Hermione does, though, 
> why don't you try her?"
> <snip reaction and Snape's definitions>
> "And a point will be taken from Gryffindor
> House for your cheek, 
> Potter."
> (PS/SS, US paperback, Ch.8, 138)
> 
> So, rereading the scene, all Snape really does
> aside from the remark 
> about celebrity (which might also be read as
> Snape's attempt to show 
> the *other* students that celebrity's not as
> important as they might 
> think it is) is ask Harry questions to which
> Harry doesn't know the 
> answers. 
> 
> I have had many teachers who start out the year
> this way. And 
> usually, they start with the kid that everyone
> thinks is the best in 
> the class. This gives people confidence that no
> one's better than 
> anyone else. And Snape didn't actually ridicule
> or insult Harry  he 
> simply demonstrated that just because you're
> famous doesn't mean 
> you're the best student in the class.
> 
> Now, granted, we know that Harry is actually
> very concerned about how 
> little he knows, and that he's afraid that
> he'll be the worst student 
> in his year. *We* know that. But the other
> students (except for Ron) 
> don't. And the teachers don't, either.
> 
> All Snape does is ask questions. It is actually
> Harry who is 
> disrespectful first, with his quip about
> Hermione.

Lynn:

First, I don't see how you got snidely from the
word quietly, but I guess that is a matter of
interpretation.  For me, I saw it more as Harry's
frustration than it being snide.  However, I do
agree that Harry should have held his tongue as
hard as it would have been for me which is why I
don't use that as an example. 

Second, Snape didn't just say celebrity.  When
Harry couldn't answer the first question,

"Snape's lips curled into a sneer.  'Tut, tut -
fame clearly isn't everything.'" (PS, p. 102)

When someone's lips curl into a sneer, I don't
think the words following it were quietly and
educationally spoken.  After the second question
Harry didn't know, Snape accuses Harry of not
opening his books even when he had no way of
knowing whether that was true or not.  Snape
asked Harry questions he had a good idea that
Harry wouldn't be able to answer.  Then, when
Harry didn't know the answer, he either made fun
of Harry (fame) or judged him on unknown
behavior.  When, after the third question he
tells the students to start writing these things
down, that showed me that Snape knew the students
probably wouldn't know these answers.  Snape
wanted to humiliate Harry and proceeded to do so.
 To me, the above behavior isn't a teaching tool,
it's showing disrespect to the student. 
Therefore, I think Snape showed disrespect first.

That being said, that doesn't give Snape the
right to say, okay, since I didn't like what he
said to me here, I'm going to be unfair there. 
Snape is supposed to be an adult and he certainly
wasn't acting that way.  He was just being nasty
and that's no way for a teacher to behave and
expect respect from their students.

I also think it's just bad teaching to make
assumptions about a child and ridicule them in
class without knowing the child. Now, if Snape
had asked Harry the questions without all the
commentary, then I'd probably feel differently. 
I've seen teachers use that in a number of ways,
usually to get others to raise their hands to
answer the questions, and it was one of the tools
they taught when I studied teaching in college. 
However, Snape was letting his own personal
feelings about James Potter influence him and
again, he's supposed to be the adult in the
situation and instead he acts childishly.

Now, the students see how Snape acts towards
Harry, are they really going to be willing to try
to answer questions while they worry about
whether Snape is going to sneer at them if they
have the wrong answer?  
 
> Tom's reply:
> That's movie contamination, there. Harry's not
> taking notes in the 
> book.

Lynn:

Mea culpa.  You're right and you'd think that
since I was reading and quoting right there in
the book I would have seen that.  Oh, well, as
Snape sneered, Tut, tut, fame isn't everything.  
At least he couldn't accuse me of not opening the
book, just not reading it properly.  LOL
 
> 
> Lynn quoted PS/SS:
> PS p. 101 - "Ah, yes," he said softly, "Harry
> Potter. Our new - celebrity."
> 
> And:
> PS p. 102 - Snape's lip curled into a sneer.
> "Tut, tut - fame clearly 
> isn't everything."
> 
> Tom's reply:
> I think it bears mention here that Snape
> clearly has issues with 
> fame, and famous people who get easy rides with
> minimum work. He 
> definitely had these issues with James Potter,
> and I believe that 
> Snape thinks he's going to stamp out any
> potential arrogance in Harry 
> right off the bat.
> <snip of supporting quotes>
 
> Let's face it  Harry *is* Dumbledore's
> favorite boy. We all know it. 
> And the others  both students and teachers -
> know it too. 
> 
> So, to return to the point, Harry's subsequent
> behavior in the other 
> books is something that Snape could predict in
> the first book. And 
> he's out to show Harry that, no matter how much
> favoritism Dumbledore 
> and the other teachers show him, he, Snape,
> will not be doing that... 
> ever, and he doesn't.

Lynn:

How in the world could Snape predict in the first
book, in his first meeting with Harry, what
Harry's behavior would be later on or how he
would be treated by others?  Hindsight is 20/20
and I don't even agree with your hindsight.  Yes,
Harry and Ron shouldn't have taken the car.  We
don't know, however, if it had been any other
students if they would have been expelled so to
assume that it's just because of who he is, is
assuming a lot.  Snape may have expelled students
from his house but it doesn't follow that Profs.
Sprout or Flitwick would have.  As for blowing up
Aunt Marge, Harry didn't just decide to blow her
up.  That was unfocused magic, an accident. 
Harry didn't take out his wand and perform magic.
 He was pushed to the point of losing control. 
I'm sorry, but at this point he's only 13 and
I've seen adults lose control over a lot less and
a lot sooner than Harry did.  To expect him to
act older than 13 is to put unrealistic
expectations on him.  Let's also not forget, that
Harry is threatened with expulsion for something
he didn't do in CoS (the pudding).  Obviously,
there isn't this huge blind spot at the MoM for
Harry otherwise they would have at least taken
the time to investigate before convicting Harry
of that offense.  As for sneaking off to
Hogsmeade, Snape couldn't prove it.  Snape never
could have gotten Harry expelled without proof
other than Draco's word on it.  You know, sort of
like Draco doing the Leg Locker curse on Neville
and getting away with it since none of the
teachers saw it?

Now, let's look at some of the things Harry has
done.  First, in PS, HRH first try to see
Dumbledore about the Stone and when he isn't
available, tell McGonagall about their
suspicions.  They are dismissed and so they do
decide to do something about it.  And, as we see,
they were right.  In CoS, they found the
information and were going straight to the
teachers.  They went to Lockhart to give him the
information just to find he was taking off.  So,
their initial reaction was to go to authority
only to find that the authority let them down.

I don't see the rule-breaking that HRH do as
being arrogant or thinking they can do whatever
they please.  Many times that rule breaking is in
an effort to help.  I see it as 11, 12, 13, 14 yo
logic.  Harry going to Hogsmeade is no different
than a kid sneaking out of the house to go to a
movie.  Is it right?  No.  Is it malicious?  No. 
Is it a kid just being a kid?  Yea.  I've
personally never met the perfect kid who has
never broken a rule or a lot rules for that
matter.  It's part of growing up.  And, they have
received punishments for their rule breaking as
well.  They haven't gotten off scott free.

>From the beginning, Snape colors his attitude
toward Harry with his feelings toward James.  Is
that an adult attitude?  Snape may have felt
James was arrogant, and he may have been for all
I know, but as much as the Potter's are described
as well-liked, I don't think arrogant is a term
many people would use about James.  The teachers
remember James fondly and probably thought of his
antics in much the same way they view the Weasley
twins, being kids.  People keep expecting Harry
to show adult behavior and judging him harshly
when he doesn't and yet, excuse childish behavior
in an adult.  That doesn't make sense to me. 
Its' the adults who expect Harry to be larger
than life, more than a kid, and when he isn't,
they judge him harshly.  Being an adult does not
excuse someone for being disrespectful to those
in a lesser postion.  As Sirius points out in
GoF, you take the measure of a man by how he
treats his inferiors, not his equals.  
 
> Lynn wrote:
> Snape hasn't done much to earn any respect and
> done lots to lose it. It's also been my
> experience that you get what you give. Snape
> gives no respect and gets none in return.
> 
> Tom's reply:
> <snip example> 
> I think it's similar because I believe that
> that's the level of 
> respect that should be accorded teachers.
> Whether or not you like 
> them, you don't show them outward disrespect.
> Sure, badmouth `em in 
> private all you want  but not to other
> teachers, and not to the 
> teacher himself. That's out of line. And Harry
> reaps what he sows 
> with Snape. Harry is disrespectful of him right
> off the bat. He 
> *could* have held his tongue there, and he
> could have just kept 
> saying, respectfully, "I don't know, sir" to
> Snape's questions. But 
> that's not what he did  he replied with
> sarcasm, thereby proving the 
> point Snape was trying to prove  that Harry
> thinks he's above norms 
> of behavior.

Lynn:

Again, I don't think Harry replied with sarcasm
but rather out of frustration after Snape's
responses to Harry's first I don't knows.  To me,
Snape showed disrespect first.  Does that excuse
Harry?  No, it doesn't. As the saying goes,
Monkey see, Monkey do, Monkey get in trouble too.
 However, I think Snape set the tone for the
relationship of disrespect, not Harry.  Yes, I
agree that you may not respect the man but you
must respect the postion.  That's a concept many
adults have trouble with and to expect an 11 yo
who has just been ridiculed and falsely accused
is expecting a whole lot.  If Harry was
constantly disrespectful to everyone, I'd have a
different opinion.  But Harry shows a lot of
respect to people.  

> Lynn wrote:
> <snip for Dumbledore arguments.>
> Tom's reply:
< <snip against Dumbledore arguments.>
> > But this is one of those things where we'll
> just have to agree to 
> disagree  last time, I don't think that anyone
> changed sides, after 
> a long battle on the issue. 

Lynn:

I respectfully agree to disagree. ;)



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