Snape, Dumbledore and Harry with a side of MD (Was: The Dueling Club - an in

[darrin_burnett]

No: HPFGUIDX 57869

Grey wolf pointed out:


> darrin burnett wrote:
> > I really hate All-Knowing Snape and Omniscient
> > Dumbledore. Mainly, I hate omniscient anyone because the more 
> > Dumbledore, Snape, whoever, is omnisicent, the more it becomes their 
> > story and less Harry's story.
> 
> I want to point out, first of all, that your objections are only in the 
> nature of disliking the theory; just because you dislike 
> Omniscient!Dumbledore, it doesn't follow that he isn't. I don't like 
> Evil!Lupin, but it has a strong case, and it is altogether possible 
> that that's what JKR has planned.

I don't recall saying anything else but that I disliked it. I wasn't commen=
ting on 
the viability of it, just that I think it would make a weaker story.

> 
> Besides, I fail to see the correlation between Omniscient!Dumbledore 
> and Dumbledore's!Story. Take, for example, Lord of The Rings. (Almost) 
> inarguably Frodo is the main character, just like Harry is. And Gandalf 
> (particularly Gandalf the White) is all-knowing. And yet it is still 
> Frodo's story. What is more, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that 
> a wise mentor is desirable. I like stories to be realistic, even within 
> a fantasy setting. The rules of phisics might have changed, but the 
> people have not. And sincerely, a book were an eleven year old boy can 
> overthrow the bad guy on its own, with no formulated plan and throwing 
> caution to the winds may make a good film (Star Wars ep. IV), but it's 
> hardly a story I'd want to discuss.

The difference to me is a story where Dumbledore orchestrates most 
everything vs. where Dumbledore is there for guidance, wisdom, some 
muscle when needed and generally being the smartest guy in the room. I 
prefer the latter.

Me:

> > I dislike MAGIC DISHWASHER because I think it makes Harry a chess 
> > pawn, which I rebel against.

So Dumbledore *is* keeping things from 
> Harry. If that makes Harry a pawn, then like it or not, Darrin, Harry *
> is* a pawn since it is canon. But MD argues otherwise. Harry isn't 
> prepared for that information, and isn't trained enough. So he is a 
> student, not a pawn. And like a student, he doesn't know everything 
> that goes on.


Fair enough. I do admit it has been a while since I studied the MD theory a=
nd I 
don't doubt that I mischaracterized it in places. 

> > Melody:
> > > Hm.  That explained you loyalties to me quite well.  I can't 
> > > persuade you to come over the Safe House for a visit, can I?
> >  
> > Nope. Snape works for me as a miserable guy who's chosen the right 
> > side. You see, I keep seeing the bastard who let Hermione suffer in 
> > front of her peers, who tortures Neville apparently just because he 
> > can, and who is carrying a schoolboy grudge a generation later.
> 
> Good canon examples, indeed. And yet... there is that little scene in 
> CoS, in the office, when Snape has no public (and by public I mean 
> students). McGonagall informs the staff that a student has been taken 
> into the chamber. And Snape displays, for the first time, concern for 
> someone who is not himself. He demonstrates, by gripping a chair hard, 
> that he is worried. He doesn't know who the student is, so some people 
> have theorized he feared it could be one of his Slytherin. But even if 
> that is the case, it demonstrates that Snape is something more than the 
> selfish, egocentric bastard you (and I) would like him to be. Beyond 
> the shows he puts up for his students (and I really think it is a show 
> - "to command the greatest respect one must be either loved or hated 
> inconditionally" and Snape goes for both - loved by Slytherin, hated by 
> everyone else). He might even enjoy it, but there is more to Snape than 
> a one-dimensional tunnel vision of hate for James Potter.

That IS an interesting scene. I think, myself, that this is where whatever =

caused Snape to turn against Voldemort might be showing itself, but I don't=
 
know. And it is one I have overlooked in my condemnations of Snape. I'll be=
 
sure to add it in from now on.


> 
> The less hate you give Snape, the less complex he is, in my opinion.
> 
> That cannot be true. Voldemort is nothing but hate, and he is very 
> unidimensional. In fact, the whole idea is wrong: if a character is an 
> elemental - i.e. based around a single idea- he is bound to be simple. 
> Snape is complex because there is more to him than hate. He can care 
> about students. He is willing to obey Dumbledore. He might be loyal, or 
> he might be traiterous. But not just hate.


No, I believe it is true, and I'll explain. I believe many, not all, but ma=
ny, of the 
examinations of Snape attempt to provide  motives to his turning against V-=

Mort at the expense of his passions.

I like Snape OVERCOMING his hate, and that is more challenging, and more 
interesting, the more hate he has built up.  

What is fascinating about Snape to me is what I perceive -- and hope to be =
-- 
his battle with his inherent nature, which I believe to be a bitter, misera=
ble 
person. The stronger that inherent nature is, the more interesting the batt=
le to 
overcome it, and the glimpses we get of actual decency and humanity.


> Interesting thought there. So you don't mind Snape acting, as long as 
> he doesn't act in the SS. At any rate, it is your opinion, and as such 
> I respect it, but I hope you realise that that is no argument against 
> MD (I know, I know, you haven't attacked MD at all in your post, but 
> hey! I'm the MDDT storm trooper. I *had* to answer).

My main objections, as I recall, with MD,  were always that I thought it ga=
ve 
Dumbledore too much of a chess board and the entire mutli-tasking scene in =

the Shrieking Shack. This plays into that I want Snape to be just devastate=
d, 
and yes, deranged, that Sirius escaped. There, I want him to not be acting.=


I want the hatred between those men to be real, and unfettered by 
Dumbeldore's orders or desires, until the scene in GoF when they shake 
hands.


> > I want him to know what he needs to know, just like Hagrid, 
> > McGonagall, Lupin and Sirius. I don't know how he got nominated as 
> > the right-hand guy and I don't think canon supports it -- or at 
> > least, doesn't support it any more than it supports any other view.
> > 
> You do realise that that is MD's view, do you? We certainly don't say 
> Snape is right-hand man. That's McGonagall, by canon. No, Snape is the 
> left-hand man, the one that has the shadowy plans and gets to do the 
> mucky jobs. And MD has always worked in the assumption of information 
> distributed in need-to-know basis.

At this point, I don't believe I was criticizing MD so much as the comment =
that 
D-Dore and Snape talk all the time and Snape knows everything. Again, in my=
 
foggy recollections of MD, if I criticized it, I didn't mean to.

Darrin
-- Very helpful, thank you :)