Why is everyone so convinced the prophecy is correct?

[tobyreiner]

No: HPFGUIDX 82335

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "persephone_kore" 
<persephone_kore at y...> wrote:
> Honestly, I don't think that's the case. I suppose you could argue
> that it's not absolutely necessary to either -- that there would be
> other ways to tell the story -- but with HP we don't know exactly 
how
> she's going to play on it, and with both HP and Star Wars (as with,
> for that matter, much of Greek myth; it's rather a classic really), 
a
> good deal of the point of the prophecy plot is how people's behavior
> in reaction to /having/ a prophecy may lead to its coming true, or
> lead to its coming true in a way they didn't want it to. 

Toby:

If the point of the prophecies was that - to demonstrate how people's 
behaviour in reaction to a prophecy helps fulfill it - I wouldn't 
mind. But I get the feeling that, in both cases, the prophecy is 
being used to retroactively justify slight loop-holes in the 
storyline, and that doesn't advance the plot but, in my view, 
detracts from it. 

For example, it seems to me that Harry's prophecy is meant to explain 
why Voldemort was more keen to kill Harry than his mother and why 
Voldemort insisted on using Harry's blood to resuscitate himself. 
Yes, he might have disagreed with Pettigrew that he could use any 
wizard who hates him, but Harry isn't the only person to have 
thwarted him. He could have tried to use Dumbledore. (And I'm 
convinced that, in spite of the red herrings about Dumbledore 
being "the only one he ever feared", Dumbledore and Voldemort are 
both well aware that Voldy's the more powerful of the two). 

In Star Wars, I think the prophecy is meant to foreshadow some 
bizarre points about the later films. Most notably, the fact that in 
The Empire Strikes Back, Yoda and Obi-Wan beg Luke not to rush to 
face Darth Vader because his training is incomplete but then in 
Return of the Jedi, when Luke returns to complete the training, Yoda 
tells him that he doesn't require any more training, even though in 
between he hasn't received any training. How to explain this 
inconsistency? (Especially as Luke's training clearly isn't complete. 
Ok, Yoda's by now very sick, but he did still have time to tell Luke 
that if the Emperor tried to throw lightning at him through his 
hands, all Luke needed to do was hold out his hand and push it back 
at him).

In my view, the purpose of the prophecy is to explain this. Yoda has 
no intention of Luke duelling Darth Vader because he knows that he 
can't win and, even if he could, it would be pointless, because Darth 
Vader, and not Luke, is going to be the one who brings balance to the 
Force, presumably by destroying Darth Sidious. 

Rather, Yoda just wants Luke to "confront" Darth Vader and rescue 
Anakin Skywalker's soul, so that Anakin can destroy the Emperor. The 
reason that Luke shouldn't face Darth Vader in The Empire Strikes 
Back, then, is that he's too immature to cope with the burden of 
knowing who Darth Vader is, and so he's bound to start a duel with 
Darth Vader as soon as he meets him. What Yoda wants is for Luke to 
merely agree to accompany Darth Vader to the Emperor, where the 
Emperor will try to convert him to the Dark Side. Witnessing this, 
Darth Vader, now older, wiser and not so broken-hearted as the Anakin 
Skywalker of yore, will be forced to rethink his decision and will 
turn back to the good.

That, in my opinion, is why Star Wars has its prophecy. 

Persephone: Well, that probably depends on what you mean by "proof." 
It appears
> that divination is treated as a legitimate area of study in HP, even
> if Trelawny tends to be a joke a lot of the time; I suppose you 
could
> argue that it /shouldn't/ be, but that people can see the future 
seems
> to be an assumption of many of the characters if not JKR's fiat 
about
>  her fictional world. They may well have good reason. Now, what I'm
> really pretty sure is true of HP is that telling the future is a 
very
> shaky business -- people practicing divination are quite capable of
> lying, and even when they aren't lying and genuinely see something
> (which appears to be quite possible) they can misinterpret. I think
> what /Firenze/ says on the topic in OotP, in fact, may be something 
we
> can take at face value. (Basically, that it's tricky and even 
centaurs
> can get it wrong by seeing the truth, or aspects of it, and not
> interpreting correctly.) 
> 
> Actually, I suspect that this may be an intrinsic feature of
> foreseeing in HP. You can see bits or signs of the future, but it 
will
> /never/ have just one possible meaning until after it's all over. 
> 

Toby: Yes, I think that's true. 

 
Persephone: Well, Trelawny has apparently (unless Dumbledore is 
lying, of course)
> had two prophecy "fits" that are very distinct from most of her 
misty
> predictions. Her second one proved out, and rather quickly at that.
> Plenty of readers are suggesting everything from Dumbledore being
> deceitful about the prophecy to having missed bits of it to (and 
this
> is the most common, I think) misinterpretation. "I don't think that
> means what you think it means." 

Toby: I don't think the fact that her other prediction proved to be 
correct is any particular reason to think that this one will. I also 
don't think that DD has missed any of the prophecy out, although 
misinterpretation is more likely. I'd still like to think just plain 
old-fashioned being wrong is a possibility too, though. I don't see 
how Harry can be expected to compete with Voldy in two years time on 
the basis of their duel in OOP. 

Persephone: > Heh. I think, like HP wizards, the Jedi also have 
some... not
> necessarily positive, I suppose, but /confirming/ experience with
> prophecy, though it looks to me as if Yoda, at least, gets rather 
more
> wary of it later on. "Always in motion is the future," he says in 
the
> original trilogy. But it's also pretty clear that it's possible to 
get
> /some/ information on it through the Force. 
> 
> I was in a class once where the professor compared the Aeneid to 
Star
> Wars in various respects. When we got to the matter of destiny,
> however, I thought the parallels broke down somewhat -- the only
> people in the original trilogy who tell Luke he has a destiny are 
the
> bad guys. And the Emperor is very smug in his "I have foreseen
> it"-ness, but he still falls. In the prequels, it looks as if the 
Jedi
> are a little too complacent themselves -- no one seems to have
> considered alternate interpretations, or actually the one that's
> probably the most obvious to the audience ("If you're way ahead in a
> two-sided situation -- 'bringing balance' is not necessarily 
something
> you want!"). ...Actually, I'm not sure what they think he's going to
> do, come to think of it. 

Toby: To be fair, I think that the full prophecy is that the Dark 
Side will gain power and then someone will rise who will bring 
balance to the Force. And the Jedi do know that the Dark Side is 
gaining in power, and that their ability to use the Force is 
diminished. I think that's why they are so fearful. 

Persephone: > This is not entirely off topic, honest. ;) Star Wars is 
an example --
> I want to say /another/ example, because I strongly suspect HP of
> being one as well -- of modern entertainment bringing in the very 
old
> theme of misunderstood and/or self-fulfilling prophecies. So I think
> most likely the one we just saw in OotP is valid -- but even if it 
IS
> Harry to vanquish the Dark Lord, and even if he kills him, there 
will
> be something weird about it. *g* 

Toby: Oh, I'm sure that's true. If Harry kills Voldy there will be 
something weird about it. Like someone sacrificing their life for 
him, Voldy being greatly outnumbered, desisting from killing Harry at 
the last moment or something like that. It would be far too banal to 
end it with Harry simply turning out to be stronger than Voldy. 
Actually I think it would be nice if, for once the ending of the 
series wasn't such a happy one. Maybe Voldy finally will takeover 
and...well, what? We don't know exactly what he wants to do. Is he 
going to declare himself Minister of Magic? Kill all the Mudbloods? 
Become Headmaster of Hogwarts? There's been virtually nothing on what 
Voldy's quest for power actually entails.