OoP - GUILTY Dumbledore (was Dumbledore's true sorrow motives)

[arrowsmithbt]

No: HPFGUIDX 80199

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "njelliot2003" <nelliot at o...> wrote:
> Replying to Talisman's post 66983:
> 
> 
>nicholas> 
>  snip>
> My thoughts are that Dumbledore has finally realized that this is 
> all really happening, and he's got a tremendous burden to carry, 
> maybe even as much or more of a burden than Harry. He's the leader, 
> the one that everyone looks to for protection and advice, the head 
> of The Order, and the person Harry has always looked to. 

Kneasy
IMO DD realises that last time round he didn't win. You could say he
lost on points - many more deaths of innocents than of DEs and V 
was going to make a comeback someday. If we believe the prophesy
applies to Harry, then an unexpected weapon has been placed in DD's
hands, one he didn't have last time. Are you suggesting he's going
to throw this advantage away?

Nicholas:
> In conclusion, I just won't believe that those "twinkling" blue eyes 
> and half-moon spectacles are hiding anything but love for Harry and 
> hope for the Wizarding World. Guilty, yes. Guilty of love and of 
> wanting to do the right thing, but his guilt has finally made him 
> realize what's at stake.
>

Kneasy
I'm sorry, but given the situation this 'love'  is not a positive thing,
it's a pair of handcuffs.  Hope is no  good either; DD can't fall into
the trap of 'hoping things work out', they didn't last time, why should
they this? He has bitter memories of friends and colleagues dead in a
struggle that gained at best, a breathing space. He knows more will
die - his job is to make certain they don't die for no purpose, brave
but ultimately pointless sacrifices. If Harry has to go so that V  is
defeated, then Harry will go. He'll probably suscribe to the fund for
the statue, but he'll have done his job. 

  
Nicholas:
> DD loves Harry! 
> " 'I cared about you too much. I cared more for your happiness than 
> your knowing the truth, more for your peace of mind than my plan, 
> more for your life than the lives that might be lost if the plan 
> failed. In other words, I acted exactly as Voldemort expects we 
> fools who love to act. 


Kneasy:
Impassioned and interesting.
In essence it states that Harry comes first in everything; above the 
truth, the plan (note that there *is* a plan),  above any other lives.
This is either patronising bulls***t or a calculated lie. Any reading
that considers this to be truth must accept that Harry is to be
wrapped in cotton wool and everyone else can go hang. The WW
can fall to Voldy so long as Harry is safe. Rubbish. Claptrap. DD is
at it again - " Just let me fit this spun product of the ovine species
over your ocular orifices, Harry"
There's more:

>Is there a defence? I defy anyone who has 
> watched you as I have – and I have watched you more closely than you 
> can have imagined – not to want to save you more pain than you had 
> already suffered.'" 

Kneasy:
Of course he *wants* to - but that is not the same as *not going to cause
you any more pain*. This a warning for those that  can hear. More
'unavoidable, regretable, I'm so sorry, Harry,' pain coming up.
The old "This hurts me more than it hurts you." ploy.

Nicholas:
> Harry's needs and preferences are to play the hero, to go after Big 
> V. I see nothing sinister or "cold-hearted" (and neither does Harry 
> going by the same quote from SS pg. 302 you use above) with DD 
> helping Harry to be Harry whether it's Weapon!Harry or Chosen!Harry. 

Kneasy:
Nothing sinister in allowing, encouraging an 11 year old untrained
student wizard to face the Voldy monster!? A creature so powerful
and evil that the rest of the WW won't even say his name?
If it's not sinister then it must be stupidity; it's certainly not the 'lov=
e'
that he keeps vapouring on about. You don't allow someone you
love to  take risks of that magnitude, a level of risk that Harry can't 
really comprehend - unless there is a plan that requires it. And if it 
does, it must also accept the strong possibility of failure.

Harry does not THINK! He reacts. He does not foresee  difficulties or
drawbacks, he will not listen to other opinions. Wind him up, and off
he goes, like a clockwork mouse. Entirely predictable to V *and to* DD.
  
Nicholas
> So to "recap", DD is watching over and helping Harry to go after 
> whomever and whatever he wants, to fulfill his needs and desires as 
> best he (Harry) knows how. DD is acting out of love for the boy, 
> love which grew as he got to know Harry, whatever his feelings were 
> before Harry arrived at Hogwarts. 

Kneasy:
This is good? So Harry is the one making all the plans to defeat Voldy?
And DD keeps him in the dark because it's more helpful that way?
DD thinks, "No need to worry, Harry knows what he's doing. I'll just
take a back seat while he cleans up Voldy." Arrgh!

Nicholas:
> I think Sirius would have helped Harry into the fight with Big V. 
> Sirius' idea of happiness would have been to have Harry become a 
> member of the OoP and Harry would have gone along with that. 


Kneasy
Sirius' idea of happiness would be for Harry to become as rash and 
unthinking as himself or James. Make the big gesture Harry!


Nicholas;
>  Sirius (correctly?) 
> realised that Harry was old and mature enough to know things sooner 
> than DD; and had Sirius been allowed to fully answer Harry's 
> questions, Harry would have had his eyes opened sooner. Harry is 
> Harry and he will go after Big V, *whatever he knows*, until one of 
> them dies.
>

 Kneasy:
DD doesn't want Harry to have his eyes open until DD is ready and he
thinks Harry is ready. Does Harry even know enough to ask the *right* 
questions as opposed to the ones that occur to  him at the moment?
How about "How are we going to win?" "What's my function?" "When 
in your judgement, will I be ready?" "Do I have the necessary skills
for what I must do?"

There is a general acceptance that Sirius knows Harry well. He doesn't.
Up to the scenes in the Grimmaud Place house, Sirius has spent 
less than 3 hours with Harry and none of it face to face with no-one 
else present. They  are sympathetic strangers full of  misconceptions.
Inside Grimmaud little advance on this is made: a big crowd, lots of
bickering. Harry learns a bit about the Black family, nothing else.
They  are still strangers.

Harry has *never*  gone after Voldy. He just  wanders off to follow one
of his bright ideas and then falls over him. Without luck or outside
intervention he'd be dead four times over. And however he's protected
against Voldemort, there's no  guarantee that an AK green flash from 
another DE can't get  him.    

DD  makes Harry take the Occlumency lessons for a reason - V can get
into Harry's head, mislead him, trap him.
What are Harry's vulnerabilities, what would make him act? Both V and 
DD know - Sirius. Sirius is the only thing that would get Harry out of
safety into danger. So Sirius is to stay at Grimmaud where Harry knows
he's safe. Meanwhile Harry is to develop protection. He doesn't. So he's
fooled into  believing the one thing DD doesn't want him to believe.
Sirius is in danger. Off he goes, knee-jerk reaction. If it can happen 
once, it can happen again. Sirius can be regarded as a liability. 

I'm not totally convinced that DD terminated  Sirius. It's a possibility.
But I don't think DD  is totally broken up about it. Sirius is now a
poignant memory and no  longer one of Harry's weaknesses. DD must
regard that as a plus.

Kneasy