Spying Game Philosophy - The Phoenix must die! My part II

[msbeadsley]

No: HPFGUIDX 81334

<This is part two from where I had to stop Saturday afternoon>

Kneasy:
> Hmm. So the atmosphere of fear engendered in the WW  just at the 
> mention of his name is not enough? Voldy is insecure in his evil?
> Sorry, can't agree. Voldy might win. He can win - if we can believe
> the prophecy. He knows this too. Otherwise why bother?

Sandy realtime:
Contrast Voldemort's demeanor with Dumbledore's: every time we have 
seen Voldemort he is agitated, threatening, punishing; in other 
words, just chewing the scenery and *performing,* always with his 
audience in mind. He is always bent on how menacing he has to seem. 
He beats that "I'm the evilest sumb*tch on the block" drum like his 
newly reacquired heartbeat depends on it (which it does if he wants 
to keep it going). He isn't insecure in his *evil*--it's his power he 
has doubts about, and his ability to win. That doesn't mean he thinks 
he *won't* win--but the more I study him, the more I see that 
his "affect" is all about fear: Voldemort's afraid, very afraid, all 
the time. He is at win or die. And we all know he believes there is 
nothing worse than death. And the name thing: well, fear of a name 
only counts if people believe the thing itself still exists to be 
afraid of. (The use of "You-Know-Who" has devolved into nothing more 
than pop culture lingo. All that silly theatrical gasping 
over "Voldemort." It's like his name is one of Carlin's Seven-Words-
You-Can't-Say-On-Television. It's just an obscenity. Little children 
probably sneak out behind the pumpkin patch with Daddy's wand to hex 
things on the sly and whisper "Voldemort" to each other and giggle at 
their badness.)

Anyway: what *is* behind not saying VOLDEMORT? (Is this like 
Lovecraft's YOG SOTHOTH? To speak his name is to summon him and lay 
waste the universe?)

Then Sandy:
> > <snip me :ouch:> Fans of Albus Dumbledore <snip :ouch:>
> > generally show alacrity, even eagerness to follow his 
> > instructions to the letter. Is that what you meant by "actively" 
> > and "passively"?

Kneasy:
> Not really.  A bit more general. DD doesn't really want to 
> interfere in lives of people unless he absolutely has to. 
> Voldemort  is a commited interventionist, IMO. He likes giving 
> orders, waving  his wand about. It's the difference between King 
> Log and King Frog, basically. Except Log is being forced to act.  

Sandy realtime:
I'm thinking as an amateur psychologist here again. Voldemort "likes 
giving orders, waving his wand about." (What would Freud have said 
about *that*!) What does that say, that grasping and manipulating of 
power? What is behind it? Isn't the guy who holds the reins tightest 
and feels the need to wield the quirt the guy who's afraid of the 
horse?

Then Sandy:
> > If the lesson is on a grand enough scale, the culture learns 
<snip>
 
Kneasy:
> Punishment isn't the criteria; occurence is. Germany is no better
> than the rest of Europe. Ask the Turkish community.
> Maybe in fiction it will work.
 
Sandy realtime:
I don't know any Turks. ;-) But I take it you're saying that while 
neo-Nazism is verbotten, crimes against ethnic/national origin groups 
are still rampant? How very sad. I will have to go look for info on 
this.

Kneasy:
> <snip> Where's the analogy to a coup d'etat backed by the so-called 
> elite with everyone else against him that we have in the WW?
> Explain please.

Sandy realtime:
The old families feel they don't count anymore. They used to be 
lauded and feted just for their pure blood. Look at what happened: 
Lucius was forced to divest the Malfoy manor of precious antiques due 
to those nasty raids. And influence? He is forced to hand over chunks 
of the family fortune to work his will these days; why, it amounts to 
nothing less than blackmail. The WW has come to the sorry pass that 
pure blood just doesn't matter anymore. Look at poor Draco: he tries 
so hard and yet his teachers still favor the Muggle-borns and 
Mudbloods. Everyone knows Fudge has no real power. Look at how he has 
to try to manage things by frantically putting Ministry spin on 
everything in sight; every single story The Daily "Profit" prints is 
a clarion call for spineless jellyfish everywhere to float together. 
Voldemort is a man of the people, the real people, the pure-blood 
people, the only hope of those masses who feel the earth eroding 
under their feet as the new elite, who trumpet superiority though 
egalitarianism, gain more ground every day. The world is awash in 
filth (just ask Mrs. Black) and how is anyone to live, to breathe? 

Am I on my side of the argument *now*? I can turn it inside out again 
if you like ;-) Er, if you don't, I mean. Furthermore--I am *way* 
more familiar with Pip's example (at least the broad strokes like the 
name "Hitler" and the fact that there was, er, one of those big 
numbered wars) than I am with your moldy old Roman whosis. So there. 
<g>

There is actually another, very relevant Voldemort/Hitler 
correlation: he was chosen by those who would have him lead them 
because they thought he would give them what they wanted, what they 
thought they needed. What they ended up with was something very 
different from what they jumped on board for. (Eh, Regulus?)

Kneasy:
> Sorry, can't get the point you're trying to make. Are you saying 
you can have a war without victims?

Sandy realtime:
You said, essentially, that a change in regime didn't matter to the 
common people, that only the coinage would be different. I'm saying 
that sometimes a war is worth having even though there are victims. 
When,  after you have the war, some of the people who *were* victims 
under the regime you toppled *are* better off. Or did you not imply 
what I inferred? <bg>

Then Sandy:
> > If Arthur Weasley is the post-Phoenix/transition government MoM 
> > (or equivalent), followed by, perhaps, Lupin (aided by judicious 
> > application of the Homorphus charm), who is followed by, say 
<snip> 

Kneasy:
> Oh, dear. Don't you think the rest of the WW should be allowed a 
> say? You seem to be following my lead on the uses and misuses of 
> power. A managed succession, no  intruders allowed. Not certain I 
> approve. Merit (which DD has) should be the criterium for 
> leadership. <snip>

Sandy realtime:
Actually, *I* never suggested a managed succession at all. I 
suggested that Dumbledore would not be leaving the WW without 
candidates who *have* merit. You seemed to be envisioning a power 
vacuum and that's what I was addressing.

Kneasy:
<snip>
> I rather fancy seeing Malfoy Snr earning his living as a snotty 
> butler.

Sandy realtime:
I am on an HP board where all list members are HP characters; Mrs. 
Malfoy has been *very* affectionate with Mr. Malfoy lately; 
naughtily, I have had a "post-family fortune laid waste" racy movie 
acting career in mind for the Mr. and Mrs.

Sandy, who thinks she just got a <gulp> fan letter from a lurker: hi, 
lurker! Thank you for the kind words! (This 'net stuff can be sooo 
strange. I like it, I like it.)