DD and "the end justifies the means." Not saying evil puppet master!

[kiricat2001]

No: HPFGUIDX 95580


vmonte wrote in post #95160:
> If Moody was using an unforgivable curse in the school I'm pretty
> sure that DD knew what was going on. I'm also sure that there must 
be
> some kind of alarm system that tells the headmaster when curses are
> used in school. I know that Moody was not the real Moody when he was
> teaching at Hogwarts, but don't you think that he ended up teaching
> the children something that was to their benefit? ...It seems to
> me that fake Moody would not have gone out of his way to teach the
> children how to defend themselves unless it was a direct order from
> DD.
> 
> So, finally, DD was no problem working with criminals or breaking 
the
> law, as long as "the end justifies the means."
> 
> 
> vmonte responds to "the end justifies the means" quote:

> I was not trying to make DD look as though he is an evil puppet
> master. I do believe that DD knows a lot more information than he
> should know. I do not know if he is a seer, a time-traveler, is Ron
> (I happen to believe this), or was given information through some
> other means. I think he is trying to subtly manipulate events, but
> not because he has some narcissistic regard for other human beings;
> but because he has pre-knowledge of how events are/were going to
> unfold. I think he is trying to manipulate events to obtain a
> better outcome than expected.

Marianne:
I can buy into this.  I hate the idea of DD as all-knowing 
puppetmaster simply because it implies he's the one dictating 
everyone's actions to fit into his master plan.  I don't doubt for a 
second that he does have a plan to defeat Vmort once and for all, and 
he is trying to figure out how to best fit the people around him into 
that plan.  This leaves room for error and for reaction to events or 
to Vmort acting in a way not forseen.  It also leaves room for people 
to act on their own and make their own choices.  I'm much happier 
with a DD who has to adjust his plan to take into consideration that 
the choices his people make.  And that those choices sometimes hinder 
the plan, and sometimes provide an unexpected bonus.  I think Vmort 
now having some of Harry's blood is an example of an unexpected bonus.

vmonte:
> I think he was able to change events several times, for the better. 
> He is obviously happy when he hears that Harry's blood is now in
> Voldemort. I think that this is something different than what he
> previously thought was going to happen.
> 
> I think that he knew in advance that Sirius was going to die. And I
> think he tried to stop this from happening.
> 
> 1. He sends Harry and Hermione back in time to save Sirius. (I don't
>    care what anyone says about people not being able to change 
history
>    according to the WW. Why send someone back in time unless you 
want
>    to change history?
> 2. DD later tries to keep Sirius safe by forcing him to stay at
>    Order headquarters.
> 
> Sirius died not because it was part of DD's plan, but because
> Sirius's destiny was to die. DD ended up only postponing his death
> for a few years.

Marianne:

I'm assuming you mean that DD knew Sirius' destiny was to die as a 
young man, but did he know how - in battle? As a result of wanting to 
protect Harry? Because he'd have a losing experience with cloth? How 
would DD know this?  Another prophecy? If that's the case, can 
people's actions change the timing of the prophecy without changing 
it's intent?  

What if Sirius' prophecy, written of course in prophecy-speak, 
implied that his death (whether physical death or soul death) would 
have something to do with cloaks or veils?  DD might have thought in 
PoA that the ultimate fulfillment of the prophecy could be put off, 
as long as he sent Harry and Hermione back in time to rescue Sirius 
from the cloaked, soul-sucking Dementors. His thoughts may have been, 
I'll keep Sirius away from Demetors and from any possible encounter 
with cloaked DEs, and he'll be okay, at least for a while.  What he 
did not forsee was that Sirius' death was cause by an entirely 
different type of veil.

vmonte:
> I also think that DD tried to change events during GoF.
> 
> 1. He changed the age requirements so that none of the main 
> characters would be able to enter the tournament -- but because he 
> changed the way things should have played out, fake Moody's actions 
> also changed. 
> 
> For example: Let's say that I know that I'm going to lose a Chess
> game because I have foreknowledge that my opponent will make certain
> moves. I decide to change my strategy in order to stop my opponent
> from beating me. Because I have now changed my strategy my opponent
> also has to come up with a new strategy in order to get the outcome
> that he wants. The opponents "new strategy" is now unknown to me -- 
I
> can still lose. Everything works under "cause and effect."
> 
> I also think that Cedric was not meant to die. I think that DD's
> actions during GoF caused Cedric to die -- and I think this was an
> unfortunate and unexpected effect resulting from DD's change in
> strategy.
> 
> One other point I want to make is that DD never really manipulates 
> the children into doing anything. If anything, he lets them do too 
> much. 
> 
> So when I say "the end justifies the means," I mean that DD has no
> problem when it comes to manipulating "bad guys" like fake Moody. 

Marianne:
I'm sure there are a lot of people that won't like this 
interpretation at all.  I do like it because I think the idea of a 
master plan dictated from the start, where everyone is a chess piece, 
everyone is manipulated into acting a certain way at a certain time  
seems contrary to JKR's message about the choices people make.  Plus, 
it's just too cold and the underlying message is too depressing. 

Marianne