To Where To When (TimeTurning that may make sense)

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 108914

> > Valky:
> > Now, if I am correct in this premise then there is evidence that 
he *did* timeturn once and only once to get a little extra info on 
the COS incedent. He comments twice that he knew who was setting the 
Basilisk on the children and in both instances he admits he doesn't 
> > know how.
> > 

Josh:
> > In 'the Rogue Bludger' he says: The Question is not who. The 
Question is how...
> > Now of course we *can* take this exclusively to mean that he 
knows it is Tom, but.......
> > In Dobby's Reward after Harry had 'so far avoided mentioning 
Ginny or the Diary' DD says: What interests me most is How Lord 
Voldemort managed to enchant Ginny.
> > Nobody *told him* that Ginny was doing Toms dirty work he *knew* 
already.........
> 

Josh:
> From his description of TR/LV as the only remaining descendant 
(I'll skip the debate about the 'ancestor' debate) of Saly then he 
can be fairly certain that Tom is and was responsible; though yes, 
probably after LV's rise and a bit of research.
> 

Valky:
I agree with that entirely. And admittedly I only speculate that it 
could mean also that DD had seen Ginny with the Basilisk but didn't 
know how she was under Tom's control. Although, at face value you 
are right and that is all, the theory that DD had already known 
about Ginny at this time makes the plot sequence more interesting.
I recall you don't have your books so I should do you the favour of 
the plot rundown from a to b there.

a: the first attack; DD is a bit skeptical about the likelihood that 
the Chamber is open, he considers the evidence and attempts to 
countercurse Mrs Norris. The clues add up for him that the Basilisk 
is on the loose but perhaps not enough do because he doesn't 
actually confirm his conviction that the chamber is open until the 
second attack.

a.1: The second attack; Curiously, I have investigated this one 
before quite recently, Dumbledore is the one who discovers Colin 
Creevey petrified. Colin is on his way up from the Great Hall to the 
third floor and DD is on his way down the staircases to the Kitchens 
from his office. MacGonagall comments that it was fortunate that DD 
was on his way for a Hot Chocolate refill then, or the attack may 
have been worse.
We are given to assume here that *Colin* held the camera to his face 
and prevented his death, if we do not read carefully enough. But if 
we are cautiously reading MacGonagall insists that DD was there. DD 
*saw* this attack, and furthermore he magically made Colin put the 
camera to his face thereby preventing his death and getting the 
final piece of the puzzle to prove that the monster was indeed a 
*real* Basilisk.
How did DD manage to be there in time save Colin? I'll leave the 
rough seas there to you, if you like. (The only niggling piece in 
there is the bunch of grapes. Darn them what do they have to do with 
anything! Red Herring I suppose.) 

Josh;  
> However, knowing the lethal nature of the Basilisk's eyes (if he'd 
> TTed for info, he'd have known it was a Basilisk first and 
foremost), then I feel he would have given more specific 
preventative advice, such as using mirrors around corners ala Hermy 
and Penelope. Not only does he care about the students' safety, but 
a death would have closed the school much sooner.
>

Valky:
Again you are quite right. Which leads into the third attack.

a.2: The Third attack. Justin Finch Fletchley and Nearly Headless 
Nick in a dark corridor on the way up some stairs to transfiguration.
The corridor is dark due to the torches having been blown out by an 
icy wind. Justin is saved by the prescence of Nick between himself 
and the Basilisks eyes. Again, somehow the child was saved just 
aronud the corner from the stone gargoyle entrance to DD's office, 
and this is where DD is.
Dumbledore was so close to this attack and the boy was protected, 
again. So far, I think that DD is protecting the school but cannot 
ascertain what is happening to Ginny. Whatever his reasons are he 
has allowed the school to continue as normal, while he protects the 
children.

a.3: Ginny disposes of the diary. Just when Dumbledore has 
calculated that whatever Tom is using to control Ginny will soon 
appear and he will be able to end the scenario whilst not harming 
Ginny or inadvertantly causing Tom to do her harm in any way. She 
throws it away. Dumbledore's plan is fallen in. 
Now he could use a timeturner to follow Ginny and find it but he 
would be all over the school tailing the girl in the hope of finding 
her in possession of something but he doesn't know what. It could be 
anything that she is carrying from her pockets to in her socks. this 
sounds a lot messier than the carefully calculated plan for 
Hermione's timeturning. And in the end, even if DD did tail Ginny, I 
think he'd draw the line at the girls bathroom. In all cases DD did 
not know about the diary until Harry showed it to him at the end of 
the book so wether or not he balanced a bit of TT to try and find 
the object possessing Ginny he never found it. In the end his plan 
fell down.

Josh: 
> Also, I seem to remember a look of delighted surprise when Harry 
and co. dragged into MM's office. Also, I thought he picked up on 
Ginny being the tool from Harry's obmission, and logical deduction: 
a TR up on current events would seek out Harry, no 3rd person was 
with them or described in the story, knew it was TR somehow, etc. It 
was just the method of enchantment, i.e. the diary, that was unknown 
to DD. 
> Furthermore, on that vein, remember that Ginny dumped the diary in 
> Myrtle's toilet... i.e. she had it with her in the bathroom no one 
> uses. That tells me she was carrying it around with her when 
opening the chamber, so if DD saw her, he'd probably connect the 
diary to it. I also don't think she went with the Basilisk on its 
rounds, so for DD to have eyeballed Ginny, he would have to have 
known the location of the chamber (he could have sealed it up at 
that time).
> 

Valky:
Yes I agree, all very valid statements, except that shortly after 
Ginny disposed of the diary Harry took it, and finally immediately 
following the Diary returning to Ginnys possesson DD was removed 
from Hogwarts.

a.4: Ginny takes back the diary. It has been four months since the 
last attack, the school is calming down. DD has lost all trace of 
the object that possesses Ginny, because it is in Harry's keep.

a.5: The Fourth attack. Dumbledore is not needed for this attack as 
Hermione saves both herself and Penelope alone. Dumbledore's 
investigation can begin again now as the object has come back into 
play. He doesn't need to bother with saving Hermione and Penelope so 
I suspect he definately goes after Ginny after this attack. 
Unfortunately for him fate has another thing in store.
  
a.5: Dumbledore is taken off the case. Dumbledore up til that point 
was executing his own plan of action. Then by some coincedental 
strokes of fortune the investigation was taken out of his hands. 
Curiously DD did not put up a fight to this. He offered his advice 
to people that he trusted and went quietly. Weird but true.

a.6: Ginny is taken. Days later Ginny is taken to the Chamber by Tom 
to die. MM knew who it was. And then the teachers curiously 
proceeded to tell Lockhart it was up to him to save her. None of 
them know where the chamber is, and I suspect that MM spoke with 
Dumbledore by some means just prior to her conference with the 
teachers. 

b. Harry finds the Chamber and the Diary. Now while I am sure the 
teachers were doing everything in their power to locate the chamber 
they couldn't. In the end Dumbledore learns what Harry finds out and 
finally discovers what the object is. You may be right that DD did 
not know it was Ginny, but then MM knew, so I strongly suspect that 
DD also knew. So perhaps DD couldn't seal up the Chamber, it does 
seem that he knew Harry could open it. It gets quite confusing here 
so perhaps another post is called for to deconstruct the finale in 
terms of Dumbledore POV.

 
> Josh;
> Ah, the more advanced debate it why I checked this group out, in 
> fact. :) Much more enjoyable that debating ships.

Valky:
LOL I agree. There is only so far you can go with a ship? Ironic 
those names aren't they? A raft is just so much more interesting.
 
> Josh:
> Here's one thought... perhaps he only turns when he can see 
evidence that he already has. For example, he makes the 
recommendation to Hermione to use hers in such a manner after seeing 
Buckbeak's disappearance that he knew wasn't accomplished by the 
trio on the first pass.
>

Valky:
Vehemently YES! 
 


Josh:
> However and contrarily to my above, to knock you off your raft 
> entirely (evil laugh) :) ...while yes, I agree time turning his 
> complicated, keep in mind that in PoA, Hermione was doing it once 
or twice a day every weekday (that's ~180 turns in the year, by an  
unexperienced student). Surely DD could do it more than once a 
year?? :)
> 

Valky:

You are of course absolutely right about that. The plan for Hermione 
was very simple and well executed, though. Of course if one was to 
go with my theory that DD does and will TT as part of his regular 
life it begs the question 'Is he already up to his proverbial neck 
in advanced time? '. 
The problems come when you need to crossover time turns on the same 
parrallel, for instance if you needed to be somewhere at a non 
specified moment within an timeframe of an hour you might timeturn 
*60 x 60* times before you found the specific moment. There is no 
real way to calculate what effect you have each failed attempt, and 
each failed attempt has an exponential degree of effect on the 
original timeline accordingly multiplied by the unsuccessful 
attempts coming before and after it.

Basically saying that a wise person such as Dumbledore simply would 
not TT to anywhere with a plan involving guesswork especially not in 
a school full of children. Hermiones timetable plan didn't involve 
any guess work and so was safe enough, I suppose.

On a lighter note I have found COS *very* interesting for a 
reference in this particular thread so thankyou for bringing it up.

Best to You
>From Valky