Harry v. Tom (was: LV never loved anyone)

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 110651

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" 
<delwynmarch at y...> wrote:
> Valky wrote :

> Now juxtapose that Tom Riddle was given to manifest the same 
> opportunity but chose against. It would be hard to maintain that 
he was entirely blameless for his continued condition. "
> 
> Del replies :
> I don't know. As I said in another post, I'm not sure I would have
> even listened if someone had told me I was depressed, back when I 
was a teenager. I was convinced that I was different, not sick. I 
thought I should change myself, not cure myself. So I really doubt I 
would have been open to anyone telling me that this or that negative 
thing was not really from me but from my illness. I would not have 
seen the light like I did years later, because I wasn't *ready* to 
see it. 
> 
> Similarly, I don't know if Tom, as a kid or a teenager, was ready 
to hear that he had a personality disorder and what he could do 
about it.
> 
> Thanks for rephrasing what you meant about observers and blame, it
> makes much more sense now.
> 

Valky:
You're welcome and I am up *very* late lol. 
Your argument is fine except that Tom *was* your age *before* he 
started terrorising the neighbourhood so by the given of a level of 
maturity required to accept the offer I see no difficulty in 
believing that the offer could have come when he was maturely ready.

Of course this does leave him quite a bit pitiable in his COS 16 
year old form. 


> Valky wrote :
> "In the case of Tom Riddle, as with anyone, he lives with his 
> conscience alone in his secret, silent to outsiders, place inside. 
He chooses not to be dependent on others clarity even at the tender 
age of 16."
> 
> Del replies :
> First of all, if Tom is indeed a sociopath, then he doesn't have a
> conscience "as with anyone".

Valky: 
This is a hard point. The only scientific basis for this is words 
from the mouth of a person who doesnt care who they hurt and ie a 
pathological liar. As the conscience is a private room of the human 
psyche accessible only by the individual to whom it belongs.
Now, not caring doesn't necessarily mean that the conscience doesn't 
exist, it could mean that the sociopath rejects its messages in a 
passion such as hate, invalidates them with a subliminal affirmation 
or nullifies their validity offhandedly and intellectually which 
might be the case with Tom.

Del:
> Second, why should he choose to depend on anyone else if a) he 
doesn't realise there's anything wrong with him, and b) he thinks 
other people don't understand him ?
> After all, while kids are usually quite willing to trust adults,
> teenagers on the other hand have a strong tendency to believe that
> nobody understands them and that nobody has ever been through their
> problems. If that teenager is a sociopath on top of it, it's not
> surprising at all that he shouldn't even stop to wonder if maybe, 
just maybe, the person talking to them might be right.
>

Valky:
This is all true. But those *are* his choices. He is a small 
vulnerable child in pain. He thinks that is normal I see, that he 
hasn't been comforted in the past so to his mind no comfort exists I 
also see. That he has no choice I do not see. He chooses to take on 
board what is useful to him as a student (information), I find there 
that if dependence is not useful to him he will not have it. In this 
way he chooses an emotionless source for input and rejects one with 
emotion. Not unusual for a teenage boy true but nevertheless a 
choice.


> Valky wrote :
> "Again it *not* my belief that this automatically means he is not 
> affected by his past suffering, but it is a choice that he can 
freely make in moving toward a better existence in spite of his 
suffering."
> 
> Del replies :
> But he *was* moving towards a better existence, in his eyes at 
least ! He *was* taking steps to reach his goals. He had his own 
idea of what he wanted to become, and he was *actively* working 
towards it. He was indeed *choosing* his future. But if he was a 
sociopath, then he wasn't aware that this future would not be 
morally satisfying and that the steps he was taking on the way were 
morally wrong.
> 

Valky:
I doubt that. His steps were entrenching him in bitterness and fear. 
He knows that he's morally wrong also, he openly defies moral fibre 
to Harry. He's not after a moral outcome in his steps, he's after a 
victory. A victory of cold emotionless invulnerable existence, he 
knows entirely that that is exactly what it is. It will be proved! 
You heard it here first!

 

> Del:
> Nash's story as you summarised it presents a very interesting 
parallel to Sociopath!Tom's story, indeed. Both were highly 
dysfunctional from a very young age, unable to understand that their 
world was not the real world. But there seems to be a huge 
difference : love. Nash was able to love, and ultimately made his 
choice based on it. Sociopath!Tom, on the other hand, never loved, 
and couldn't base his decisions on that, so he had to base them on 
something else.
>

Valky:
I personally do not extrapolate *not able to* Love from having never 
Loved or cared for anyone. Probably why we are debating it ;P
I believe Tom was able to Love someone. He just didn't like it, or 
more to the point feared the consequences of Love because Love *is* 
a servitude. He would not lay down for any servitude, not even Love 
he did not want to capitulate he fights anything that would take 
away his ultimate blanketing power over his physical world, 
emotions, Love, Death......
 
Del:
> Moreover, Nash apparently realised at some time that he was ill. We
> have no idea if LV ever came to that same conclusion. If he didn't,
> then he's still living in his own world and believing this is the 
real world.
> 

Valky:
Indeed he may never have realised this or he may have either way 
when he does he has a choice to rebuke all he has known and it will 
probably break his heart to do so. The real difference between Nash 
and LV is that Nash chose to give up things that meant more to him 
than anything ever had in order to accept that he was ill, LV has 
not, and probably will not if he's half the villain he is supposed 
to be. Well actually that makes him a lazy weak coward but who's 
counting...lol



> Valky wrote :
> "But love is everywhere and it does find you."
> 
> Del replies :
> Could be, but maybe it hasn't found LV *yet* ? After all, once he 
left school, he wasn't exactly in the right kind of environment for 
love to find him, was he ? But now that the link between him and 
Harry is getting stronger, maybe love will finally find him, through 
Harry.
> 
> Del

You could well be entirely right. It may be a Love that he cannot 
flee because Love comes in the right form for the recipient and a 
Love that LV cannot escape seems to be exactly what he needs. 
Actually that's a really nice ending to the story. Throw LV into the 
room of love and *finally* give the socio/psycho etcetec path his 
light at the end of his tunnel.
Real Nice Del!

Valky