Harry v. Tom (was: LV never loved anyone)

[delwynmarch]

No: HPFGUIDX 110664


Valky wrote :
" Tom *was* your age *before* he started terrorising the neighbourhood
so by the given of a level of maturity required to accept the offer I
see no difficulty in believing that the offer could have come when he
was maturely ready."

Del replies :
Actually no. He killed his father and grand-parents by the age of 16.
And he started immersing himself in the Dark Arts shortly after
leaving school. That means that by the time I was ready to react, he
would have been deep in the evil ways, too deep to have reached the
same kind of understanding I had.

Valky wrote :
"This is all true. But those *are* his choices. He is a small 
vulnerable child in pain. He thinks that is normal I see, that he 
hasn't been comforted in the past so to his mind no comfort exists I 
also see. That he has no choice I do not see. He chooses to take on 
board what is useful to him as a student (information), I find there
that if dependence is not useful to him he will not have it. In this
way he chooses an emotionless source for input and rejects one with 
emotion. Not unusual for a teenage boy true but nevertheless a  choice."

Del replies :
But *why* would he choose dependence ? As an orphan, he must have
learned independence quite early. And from what we see in CoS, he
didn't seem to suffer from it, he didn't seem to mind taking care of
himself. So why would he choose a painful path that would take him
away from his long-time goal and that would hold no apparent reward ??
Just because someone *told* him he should ??


I, Del, wrote :
"But he *was* moving towards a better existence, in his eyes at least
! He *was* taking steps to reach his goals. He had his own idea of
what he wanted to become, and he was *actively* working towards it. He
was indeed *choosing* his future. But if he was a sociopath, then he
wasn't aware that this future would not be morally satisfying and that
the steps he was taking on the way were morally wrong."

Valky answered :
"I doubt that. His steps were entrenching him in bitterness and fear.
He knows that he's morally wrong also, he openly defies moral fibre 
to Harry. He's not after a moral outcome in his steps, he's after a 
victory. A victory of cold emotionless invulnerable existence, he 
knows entirely that that is exactly what it is. It will be proved! You
heard it here first!"

Del replies :
I seem to be missing your point, or else you're missing mine :-)

First I don't believe his steps were entrenching him in bitterness and
fear. They would if he was *us*, but he was not. Tom was *not* after
love and acceptance, he was after power and immortality.

Second there's still the issue of whether he had a conscience and
actually knew that his choices were morally wrong. What do you mean by
"he openly defies moral fibre to Harry" ?

Third, I agree he's after a victory of cold emotionless invulnerable
existence. But so what ? That's also what I wanted, not so long ago.
What's morally wrong with that ?

Valky wrote :
"I personally do not extrapolate *not able to* Love from having never
 Loved or cared for anyone. Probably why we are debating it ;P I
believe Tom was able to Love someone. He just didn't like it, or more
to the point feared the consequences of Love because Love *is* a
servitude."

Del replies :
But how would he know that he didn't like Love, or that he would
necessarily be a slave to it ? He would have had to *try* it first,
but he never did, he never loved.

Valky wrote :
"The real difference between Nash and LV is that Nash chose to give up
things that meant more to him than anything ever had in order to
accept that he was ill, LV has not, and probably will not if he's half
the villain he is supposed to be."

Del replies :
I don't know why Nash felt he had to accept that he was ill, but I can
sure understand why anyone would refuse to accept that, especially if
it means giving up valuable things and even more if they are told that
it's very hard to cure the illness.

If Tom was indeed a sociopath, he had precious little to gain by going
the nice way, and quite a lot to gain by going his own way. It's a lot
to ask of any teenager to give up his dreams in the name of a greater
ideal, but it's downright hopeless to do it if you have pretty much
*nothing* to give in exchange and if you ask it in the name of an
ideal that the teenager doesn't understand. Don't you think ?

Del