James the Berk?

[delwynmarch]

No: HPFGUIDX 105519

Valky's post that started it all :
> > James only uses physically non-harmful hexes Snape ( I won't say 
> > harmless because I concede the truth of psychological harm), Snape 
> > employs a more dangerous attack on James than James even considers 
> > unleashing on Snape. Although I accept that James was indeed having
> >  a bit o' a lark at Snapes expense I see he was *already noble*. 

Then Valky wrote :
> Firstly lets bow and make honour Del, this may get bloody. 

Del replies :
I can be tenacious, so I hope you've got enough food and drink at hand ;-)

Valky wrote :
> LOL, Just kidding! 
> But incedently did the Snape Fangs quip rope you in? 

Del replies :
Nope, and they won't. Nobody can rope me in :-)
You know, I realised this afternoon that those last weeks, I've
defended Snape, Percy and Vernon. Maybe I should have become a lawyer
? Lol !

Valky wrote :
> "the Avada Kedavra's a curse that needs a powerful bit of magic 
> behind it - you could all get your wands out now and point them at 
> me and say the words, and I doubt I'd get so much as a nose-bleed."
> Crouch!Moody, GOF, Chapter 14 The Unforgivable Curses
> 
> Therefore, I put to you Del, is it not beyond reasonable doubt that 
> this influence could apply to other magic?
> If indeed you can show me where a doubt is reasonable.......

Del replies :
No, it's reasonable.
However, I'd like to point out that Snape did not even voice his curse
on James, and still it had an effect. That seems to counter your
opinion that Snape was not powerfully magical. Which in turn means
that if that curse was indeed AK, then Snape probably could actually
kill with it already at that time. I wonder why he didn't use it on
James in a much more quiet place and time ...?

Valky wrote : 
> Now, reminded that we are speaking of a boy only 15 attempting 
> *possibly* a curse that *could* (most probably would! for my mind 
> but again just mho) inflict a mortal wound upon the recipient.

> The chance is, he isn't powerful enough to do it, yet. But he's 
> practicing, and he *would* choose that curse over such thing as a 
> slug hex or something less ummmm well sinister.

Del replies :
Snape is a lot of unpleasant things, but he's not *stupid*. I
seriously doubt that he would go killing a fellow student in broad
daylight and in front of dozens of eye-witnesses.

Honestly, if he really wanted to kill James, he could do it in a much
more discrete way. Just send a fake note from Lily telling him to meet
her in a secluded place at night, and zap him away from spying eyes.

But do it right in front of half the school ?? Please ! How could he
ever hope to justify it ? "He disarmed me, Headmaster, and filled my
mouth with soap bubbles, he deserved to die !" I don't think so.

Valky wrote : 
> "...only because you're too noble to use them..." ring a bell to you 
> at all?

Del replies :
"Who wants to see me take off Snivelly's pants ?"
Ring another bell ?

Valky wrote : 
> But James, who although he dislikes Snape, doesn't really want to 
> put the boys life at risk, would rather be content to, in his own 
> dunderhead act before he thinks way, demonstrate to Snape that Dark 
> magic is no substitute for the talent of a wizard like him.
> So he uses silly hexes. The teasing and humiliation is a byline to 
> it all. (Well there's not enough canon to actually prove that yet, 
> but there will be.) 

Del replies :
I disagree. It's pretty clear to me that all James and Sirius were
after was entertainment and showing off. They keep mocking Snape, and
they obviously take great pleasure in making the crowd laugh. They
just wanted to make fun of Snape, and to show off their talents,
that's just it.

Valky wrote :
> I am only pointing out that James drew the line at killing or 
> actually physically harming him but it is likely, very likely that 
> Snape didn't. Even after Snape did throw the curse that cut his 
> face, FROM BEHIND, he did not retaliate he humiliated. 

Del replies :
It's *James* that broke the rules of fair duelling : he didn't let his
opponent get into position before attacking *2 on 1* AND *without
provocation* - that makes THREE serious breaches in the rules of fair
duelling. After that, I don't see how anyone can blame Snape for not
following those rules either : he was just following James's lead.

Valky wrote : 
> Could James mind not be "This is teaching the coward some humility."

Del replies :
James was so brave indeed, going 2 on 1...

Valky wrote :
> Snape, after all, is part of a Slytherin Racial Prejudice Gang.

Del replies :
So what ? As long as Snape doesn't DO anything wrong (like insulting
Lily, but even then it wasn't James's job to punish him), James has NO
RIGHT to punish Snape. Nobody is allowed to punish anyone else for
their OPINIONS.

Valky wrote :
> ....we cannot judge that James was not already noble in using milder 
> counterhexes. Sirius certainly seemed to believe so...........

Del replies :
Hanging someone upside down, threatening to take their underwear off
(and maybe actually doing it), I don't see anything noble in that, and
I see something very emotionally damaging. If someone took your kid's
clothes off rather than beating him up, I don't think you'd find that
"milder".

Valky wrote :
> Snape was in neck deep in the Dark Arts, He exhibited racially 
> prejudice behaviour.

Del replies :
Being fascinated by the Dark Arts is not a crime.
And we don't know that Snape exhibited racism : we know he believed in
it, but we don't know that he acted on those beliefs. Seems to me that
if Snape had been bullying Lily for being a Muggle-born for 5 years,
she would not have come to his defence, and she would not have been so
surprised at his insult.
Once again, I repeat : you can't punish someone for their *beliefs*,
only for their *acts*

Valky wrote : 
> Snape was an EXAMPLE.
> James and Sirius took the duty upon themselves in their stupid 
> teenage pride, in their overwrought cause to MAKE PEOPLE LAUGH AT 
> THE DARK ARTS AND RACIAL PREJUDICE!!!

Del replies :
No. They were making people laugh at Snape, the person. At no moment
did they explain that they were punishing him for what he represented
and not for what he was. It was a personal attack. Proof of that is
that when Lily asks James why he's attacking Snape, he doesn't mention
the Dark Arts, he doesn't mention the racism, he doesn't mention doing
an example, he simply says he doesn't like the fact that Snape exists
: Snape, not his beliefs, not his actions, not his friends, just Snape
himself.

I, Del, wrote :
> > Snape, on the other hand, was trying to win what he considered to 
> > be a classic wizard duel. The best and fastest way is to disable 
> > your opponent, hence the physically harming curse.

Valky answered :
> From Behind? 
> Still makes him less than noble in his intentions.

Del replies :
Yep, after having been attack for no reason, by 2 people, who didn't
leave him any time to get into position. James and Sirius played dirty
right from the beginning, Snape followed suit.

Valky wrote :
> Well I didn't really mean that *it* was noble.
> I am sure I said that *James* was already noble.
> The nobility is behind the action.
> He *was* an 'idiot'. 
> With a belief in something noble and a noble heart and spirit.
> He didn't have to change that.
> Snape on the other hand.....?

Del replies :
In short James had a noble heart but acted vilely, while Snape had a
vile heart but we have no proof he acted in any vile way. Humph.

And just because Snape's beliefs aren't popular doesn't mean he should
change them. He's a got a RIGHT to think as he wants. He just doesn't
have the right to act in certain ways. That's a BIG difference.

Del, obviously not convinced yet :-)