James the Berk?

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 105580

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" 
<delwynmarch at y...> wrote:
> Valky's post that started it all :
> > > James only uses physically non-harmful hexes Snape ( I won't 
say harmless because I concede the truth of psychological harm), 
Snape employs a more dangerous attack on James than James even 
considers unleashing on Snape. Although I accept that James was 
indeed having a bit o' a lark at Snapes expense I see he was 
*already noble*. 
> > >

Valky glances anxiously at the score, "Darn it, are we still on that 
point." she murmurs to herself sweeping her sweaty brow and wincing. 
Del gleams a most devilish smile and hummingly breathes, "Weakened 
are we ? You haven't struck a decent blow yet, Valky" 

The two wands flourish and the champions engage again........


> 
> Valky wrote :
> > "the Avada Kedavra's a curse that needs a powerful bit of magic 
> > behind it - you could all get your wands out now and point them 
at me and say the words, and I doubt I'd get so much as a nose-
bleed." Crouch!Moody, GOF, Chapter 14 The Unforgivable Curses
> >  Therefore, I put to you Del, is it not beyond reasonable doubt 
that this influence could apply to other magic?



> Del replies :
> No, it's reasonable.
> However, I'd like to point out that Snape did not even voice his 
curse on James, and still it had an effect. That seems to counter 
your opinion that Snape was not powerfully magical. Which in turn 
means that if that curse was indeed AK, then Snape probably could 
actually kill with it already at that time. I wonder why he didn't 
use it on James in a much more quiet place and time ...?
>


Valky:
In turn you have also countered any future claim by yourself that 
Snape was a hapless non-threatening target for James. So I thank you 
for that.

I don't think it was the AK. 
(And I strongly, very strongly reject that it could have been a 
misdirected "stupefy" or "expelliarmus". 
There is no way it was even vaguely related to either of those, they 
don't cut people. In EVERY case of canon that involves one of those 
going wrong the opponent is knocked unconcious not cuts, no mortal 
wounding, so just to preempt a reply of that nature.)

It was in a related field of magic to the AK I would bet my entire 
keepings in Grigotts on it. It was a Dark Arts Curse, I will take 
that bet with anyone who dares. It was dangerous and it was the 
precise 'case in point' to show that Snape was serious in battle 
with James, deadly serious. I don't think he ever tried to hide that 
fact. 


> Valky wrote : 
 But he's practicing, and he *would* choose that curse over such 
thing as a slug hex or something less ummmm well sinister.
> 
> Del replies :
> Snape is a lot of unpleasant things, but he's not *stupid*. I
> seriously doubt that he would go killing a fellow student in broad
> daylight and in front of dozens of eye-witnesses.
> 

Valky:
You are talking about Snape the adult. I see absolutely no evidence 
in Snape the child that even remotely implies an intelligent, 
subtle, coolheaded person in control of himself.
Now, he may have been smart enough to not attempt murder in the 
broad daylight, this is true. Nevertheless, he was baying for James 
blood. He would have taken whatever he could get, I see no canon 
whatsoever in the pensieve scene to prove that he was any more 
rational than this. 


Del:
> Honestly, if he really wanted to kill James, he could do it in a 
much more discrete way. Just send a fake note from Lily telling him 
to meet her in a secluded place at night, and zap him away from 
spying eyes.
>

Valky:
Well I would not have put it past him to have done so at some stage.
The truth is, i am soooo sure lets take another bet!, the only 
person in range of these two boys that was the slighest bit a 
challenge for them was each other.
James was his nemesis. Not just his bully.




> Valky wrote : 
> > "...only because you're too noble to use them..." ring a bell to 
you at all?
> 
> Del replies :
> "Who wants to see me take off Snivelly's pants ?"
> Ring another bell ?
> 

Valky:
We aren't up to that bit yet, Del. 
James had a very very poor temper didn't he.
It really cut him that Lily called him just like Snape.

Ohh purlease can we save this bit for when I lead into it. 


> Valky wrote : 
> > But James, who although he dislikes Snape, doesn't really want 
to put the boys life at risk, > > So he uses silly hexes. The 
teasing is just a byline........ 
> 
> Del replies :
> I disagree. It's pretty clear to me that all James and Sirius were
> after was entertainment and showing off. They keep mocking Snape, 
and they obviously take great pleasure in making the crowd laugh. 
They just wanted to make fun of Snape, and to show off their talents,
> that's just it.
>

Valky:
Ok I said to Hunter my answer to this is Look Closer!
Snape never takes his eyes off James. There is a silent dialogue 
between them. Sirius is of no consequence in the slightest to Snape. 
No matter what he does to get Snapes attention, Snape ignores him.
The three engaged in this incedent already know whats going on 
between them theres no need to voice it. Except that it would help 
US a whole lot to understand whats going on.
Look deeply at the silent dialogue, Del. It is James and Snape.
Sirius is desperate for a look in but Snape has no regard for him or 
his opinion. Theres a huge backstory in just that small fact.


> Valky wrote :
Even after Snape did throw the curse that cut his 
> > face, FROM BEHIND, he did not retaliate he humiliated. 
> 
> Del replies :
> It's *James* that broke the rules of fair duelling : he didn't let 
his opponent get into position before attacking *2 on 1* AND *without
> provocation* - that makes THREE serious breaches in the rules of 
fair duelling. After that, I don't see how anyone can blame Snape 
for not following those rules either : he was just following James's 
lead.
> 

Valky:
If you look at my posted reply to Hunter you'll see how I point out 
Snape does a lot more of that precise thing, following James' lead.

> Valky wrote : 
> > Could James mind not be "This is teaching the coward some 
humility."
> 
> Del replies :
> James was so brave indeed, going 2 on 1...
>

Valky:
My only defence is that James took on Snape alone to begin with. 
After that Sirius attack was a precursor to his taunting only to 
gain Snapes attention. 

> Valky wrote :
> > Snape, after all, is part of a Slytherin Racial Prejudice Gang.
> 
> Del replies :
> So what ? As long as Snape doesn't DO anything wrong (like 
insulting Lily, but even then it wasn't James's job to punish him), 
James has NO RIGHT to punish Snape. Nobody is allowed to punish 
anyone else for their OPINIONS.
>

Valky:
Quite right, though I suspect you've already gathered I am heading 
somewhere entirely different with my argument.

 
> Valky wrote :
> > ....we cannot judge that James was not already noble in using 
milder counterhexes. Sirius certainly seemed to believe so...........
> 
> Del replies :
> Hanging someone upside down, threatening to take their underwear 
off (and maybe actually doing it), I don't see anything noble in 
that, and I see something very emotionally damaging. If someone took 
your kid's clothes off rather than beating him up, I don't think 
you'd find that "milder".
> 

Valky:
I am not sure. I am basing this heavily on my bet that Snape used a 
dangerous and evil curse. I reckon a good tipping would be in order.

Though I would certainly want to point out to the other boy that he 
has needs to keep his temper in check, and take rejection from his 
girlfriend more handsomely.


> Valky wrote :
> > Snape was in neck deep in the Dark Arts, He exhibited racially 
> > prejudice behaviour.
> 
> Del replies :
> Being fascinated by the Dark Arts is not a crime.


Valky:
No, I am accusing him of using them here. And I stand by it 
unequivocally.



Del:
> And we don't know that Snape exhibited racism :

Valky:
This statement refers exclusively to his one statement about Lily.

Then I consider James reply to her comment "Your as bad as he is!"
And reading between the lines I'd say they (James and Sirius) had 
prior cause to believe he was racially prejudiced.


> Del:
.....we know he believed in it, but we don't know that he acted on 
those beliefs. Seems to me that if Snape had been bullying Lily for 
being a Muggle-born for 5 years, she would not have come to his 
defence, and she would not have been so surprised at his insult.
> Once again, I repeat : you can't punish someone for their 
*beliefs*, only for their *acts*
>

Valky:
I would not have ever implied that Snape might have been bullying 
non pureblood wizards. I deduce absolutely that he never would have, 
bullying was not his style.
 I think that Sirius and James were neither intending to punish 
Snape for his beliefs OR his acts. But to demonstrate a position of 
authority over them for its own end.
In other words they stood over what he represented, to them, 
entirely for the reason of standing over it. Nothing else.
 

> Del further replies :
It was a personal attack. Proof of that is that when Lily asks James 
why he's attacking Snape, he doesn't mention the Dark Arts, he 
doesn't mention the racism, he doesn't mention doing an example, he 
simply says he doesn't like the fact that Snape exists : Snape, not 
his beliefs, not his actions, not his friends, just Snape himself.
> 

Valky:
"Ummmm"
The fox lowers her wand and beckons to Del with a tentative finger.
"Just between you and me.." She whispers hoarsely "I don't want to 
fight this one."
Del reels back startled, steadies a curious gaze at the Fox and 
asks "Why?"
"Well... actually, I fully concede that the attack on Snape had a 
shallow principle, well at least in part, a small part....."
Del jumped backed into battle position and declared," I am not done!"


Del, wrote :
> > > Snape, on the other hand, was trying to win what he considered 
to be a classic wizard duel. The best and fastest way is to disable  
your opponent, hence the physically harming curse.
> 
> Valky answered :
> > From Behind? 
> > Still makes him less than noble in his intentions.
> 
> Del replies :
> Yep, after having been attack for no reason, by 2 people, who 
didn't leave him any time to get into position. James and Sirius 
played dirty right from the beginning, Snape followed suit.
> 



Valky:
I don't really think it was so dirty actually. James was always 
going to be Snapes first and last target. 
I have a feeling that Snape and Sirius had battled before and Sirius 
couldn't best Snape. 
Snape had no regard for Sirius, none. All three boys knew this, 
Sirius wanted to mean something to Snape, but the only thing that 
mattered was James.


> 
> Del closes with a summation of my closing:
> In short James had a noble heart but acted vilely, while Snape had 
a vile heart but we have no proof he acted in any vile way. Humph.
> And replied with: 
> And just because Snape's beliefs aren't popular doesn't mean he 
should change them. He's a got a RIGHT to think as he wants. He just 
doesn't have the right to act in certain ways. That's a BIG 
difference.
> 

Valky:

My point is HE DOES change them to become the Snape we know in the 
modern day HP World, whereas what is in James heart does not change.

(ps. I like your style Del, meet me in TBAY and we'll talk business 
on the terms of our agreement.)