James the Berk?

[delwynmarch]

No: HPFGUIDX 105643

Valky wrote :
> In turn you have also countered any future claim by yourself that 
> Snape was a hapless non-threatening target for James. So I thank you 
> for that.

Del replies :
Well, I wouldn't go as far as you do, and call Snape a mortal danger,
but it's quite obvious he can fight. He is *Snape* after all. And even
Neville can fight, so...                                             
                                                                     
                              

Valky wrote :
> It was in a related field of magic to the AK I would bet my entire 
> keepings in Grigotts on it. It was a Dark Arts Curse, I will take 
> that bet with anyone who dares. It was dangerous and it was the 
> precise 'case in point' to show that Snape was serious in battle 
> with James, deadly serious. I don't think he ever tried to hide that 
> fact. 

Del frowns and calls for a truce. She's just realised that this
particular argument won't get anywhere because...
"You know, Valky, we still haven't got a definition of what
constitutes Dark Magic."
The Fox looks startled :
"Why, it's obvious, isn't it ? Anything magic intended to harm is Dark
Magic, isn't it ?"
But Del shakes her head :
"I don't think it's that simple. It's just like Slinkhard saying that
counter-jinx is just a name people give their jinxes when they want to
make them sound more acceptable. According to him, one shouldn't even
try to defend themselves actively, because that would be akin to
attacking. To me, it's quite the same with Dark Magic. There might be
things that are very obviously evil, but I'm sure most of it only
depends on the intent of the user. After all, even AK is not
automatically considered Dark Magic in times of war. The Aurors had
been officially allowed to use the Unforgivables last time. So even if
Snape's curse is something that would be considered evil in a direct
attack, maybe it's considered fair game in defense ? After all, we
don't hear any scream of fear or cry of outrage from the crowd when
Snape uses his curse. And James doesn't even seem to be hurt by it
beyond the gash in his cheek."
The Fox ponders that for a while. Then she says :
"But Snape was not defending himself, was he ? He wasn't being
attacked any more when he cursed James."
Del reviews the events in her head and replies :
"Well, one could argue he was. The Impediment Jinx took time to wear
off and Snape attacked as soon as he could. Just because James was
looking somewhere else doesn't mean Snape wasn't supposed to take his
turn in attacking as soon as he could. "
The Fox isn't convinced :
"Still he shouldn't have used a Dark Curse !"
Del sighs :
"Well, let's agree to disagre then, because in my mind he was entitled
to use whatever means he could. He had been attacked for no reason,
and not given a proper chance to defend himself. I'm disappointed that
he should choose such a violent curse to retaliate, but I feel it was
his right to do whatever he wanted to get out of a situation he had
not done anything to get into. And I'm still not convinced it was a
Dark Curse !"

On to the next point, then :-)

Valky wrote : 
> > > "...only because you're too noble to use them..." ring a bell to 
> > > you at all?

Del answered :
> > "Who wants to see me take off Snivelly's pants ?"
> > Ring another bell ?
 
Valky replied :
> We aren't up to that bit yet, Del. 

Del smiles :
Ah bah, you're the one who started with the out-of-context quotes :-)
And anyway, I don't *care* if James was upset or whatever. In my
opinion, anyone willing to use such methods, whatever the
circumstances, is not noble at heart. Being willing to humiliate
someone that thoroughly is the antithesis of nobility in my idea.

Valky wrote :
> Snape never takes his eyes off James. There is a silent dialogue 
> between them. Sirius is of no consequence in the slightest to Snape. 
> No matter what he does to get Snapes attention, Snape ignores him.
> The three engaged in this incedent already know whats going on 
> between them theres no need to voice it. Except that it would help 
> US a whole lot to understand whats going on.
> Look deeply at the silent dialogue, Del. It is James and Snape.
> Sirius is desperate for a look in but Snape has no regard for him or 
> his opinion. Theres a huge backstory in just that small fact.

Del replies :
I agree, but that doesn't change the fact that James was not alone.
Harry couldn't care less about Crabbe and Goyle, he ignores them
superbly, but when they accompany Draco when Draco attacks Harry, it's
still considered 3-on-1.
Sirius was there, he constituted a second source of danger, forcing
Snape to keep his eyes on both James and Sirius, and he took turns
attacking Snape. Even if Snape only considered Sirius as an extension
of James (like Harry does with C&G), it doesn't change the fact that
it was still 2 wizards against one.

Valky wrote :
> My only defence is that James took on Snape alone to begin with. 
> After that Sirius attack was a precursor to his taunting only to 
> gain Snapes attention. 

Del replies :
Nah :-) James and Sirius were together when James initially taunted
Snape. 2 people. Psychologically, physically and magically, it was
nowhere the same as James alone. Snape might have cared only about
James, but the presence of Sirius did matter. Just like the presence
of C&G does matter.

Valky wrote :
>  I think that Sirius and James were neither intending to punish 
> Snape for his beliefs OR his acts. But to demonstrate a position of 
> authority over them for its own end.
> In other words they stood over what he represented, to them, 
> entirely for the reason of standing over it. Nothing else.

Del replies :
Which in my eyes was both a perfectly unjustified and stupid thing to
do. Unjustified because they have no right to harass a student because
of his convictions, and stupid because they used evil to fight evil,
which is always unproductive, if not counterproductive.

Valky wrote :
> My point is HE DOES change them to become the Snape we know in the 
> modern day HP World, whereas what is in James heart does not change.

Del replies :
Sorry Valky, but I'm afraid the whole point of James is that he *did*
change :-) Lily said it herself : James was no better than Snape. She
would not go out with 15-year-old James, but she married his
18-year-old counterpart. Both James and Snape changed drastically
after the Pensieve scene, even if James changed earlier than Snape.

Valky wrote :
> (ps. I like your style Del, meet me in TBAY and we'll talk business 
> on the terms of our agreement.)

Del replies :
I'm afraid I made it clear in Feedback a few months ago that I'm
completely alien to TBAY. Many people would laugh their head off if I,
of all people, were to be found wandering in TBAY :-)

Del