James the Berk?

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 105695

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" 
<delwynmarch at y...> wrote:
 
> Del replies :
> Let's reconsider the events :
> Snape was sitting quietly on his own reviewing his DADA OWL.
> He stands up to go away.
> His 2 arch-enemies come up *together*.
> They insult him *loudly*.
> 
> Now let's figure another imaginary scene.
> Harry is sitting quietly on his own, revising for his OWLs.
> He stands up to go away.
> Draco, Crabbe and Goyle come up together, and insult him loudly.
> 
> What is Harry going to do ?
>

Valky:
It's already canon! I dont' need to speculate.
He makes some wisecrack about Draco's complete incompetence.

Del says: 
> Draw his wand.
> 

Valky:
No not yet....
Actually thats canon too.
He usally draws his wand when he gets MAD.
Harry has his fathers temper, I reckon.

Del:
> That doesn't mean that he's going to *use* it. That just means 
that he gets into a defensive position, because people with whom 
he's fought previously have just talked to him in a provocative way.
> 
> And if Draco disarms Harry before he had time to properly get his 
wand ready, and then jinxes him, I think it's pretty clear that 
*Draco alone* started the fight, not Harry.
>

Valky:
Well seeing as this is, as good as, never the way a melee between 
Draco and Harry plays out I guess we should dismiss it as a 
comparison.

Del: 
> Moreover, there is no mention that James *outdrew* Snape. There's 
no mention that James had his wand out before Snape went for his own,
> either. So no conclusion can be drawn based on the stated facts 
only.
> However, Snape had his bag on his back and was taken unaware, while
> James was pre-prepared to a fight, in fact he was hoping for it. So
> even if James did outdraw Snape, it still wasn't fair.
>

Valky:
Fair enough a statement. 
But just a question, to you. Are you sure that you are not too 
quickly dismissing Sirius' and Lupin's adult statement, to Harry, 
that Snape was indeed dangerous?
 
> Valky wrote :
> slanging. If that's the *first* attack that your referring to then 
it has nothing to do with duelling at all. Snape is of course within 
his right to reply with  his exceptional wit ............. ;D
> 
> Del replies :
> Even in RL, fights rarely start straight by using the fists. Most 
of the time, they start with words. Fists give out physical blows, 
but words give emotional blows, and it's not rare to see people 
reacting to an insult in the same way they would react to a physical 
blow. Thus, James's insult *was* the first blow and had indeed 
started the duel. Snape could have chosen to keep the duel on the 
level of words, but that doesn't change the fact that *James* gave 
the first blow.
>

Valky:
Yes, ...and No.
You see, it is unfortunate because the predicament I am in is; No 
matter how many ways I rephrase it or insist it, there will always 
be a grey area. I am posting my defence of James, but that can very 
easily be construed as a post in defense of those actions, of his, 
which I cannot defend. 
Like picking the fight. Indeed I shall give no support to that 
choice of James'. It was a wrong and stupid choice. I am defending 
James, against the presumption that he is *nothing more* than a 
shallow self centered and cruel little prat at the time of the 
pensieve. I am attempting to demonstrate that there is something 
deeper going on there between James and Snape, I am arguing that the 
fight was never one sided. But not, I am not saying, that James was 
innocent or that his actions are excusable. So I separate the 
baiting from the wand match. Because once the wands are out Snape is 
deadly serious, the situation becomes serious. The baiting is a 
crime by James. But when Snape has his wand in his hand the one 
sidedness ends. He will only attack James, and it will not be pretty 
if he wins.

> Valky wrote :
> > It is always James against Snape.
> 
> Del replies :
> So what's wrong with Draco ? Why do we despise him for having his
> body-guards around whenever he attacks Harry ? After all, it's 
always Draco against Harry, isn't it ? So I guess we should actually 
consider Draco *courageous* for daring to take on such a famous and 
obviously talented wizard as Harry.
>

Valky:
The comparison here works better, in your favour, I will admit. 
This is the comparison we are meant to make, I am sure. Harry v 
Draco is a serious matter also, no denying that. 
The real difference is that neither Harry nor Draco are practicing 
the kind of magic that Snape WAS as a young man. 
(I will boldly predict that in future books Draco will and Harry 
will be faced with the same kind of opponent his father *chose* as a 
teen. And that may be a new insight for Harry into the Snape v James 
story.)
Draco isn't dangerous in the books so far. And as such, since we 
compare James with him, it leads to the conclusion that neither was 
James. But, we have canon, that Snape was. 


Del:
> If it was indeed James only against Snape, then Sirius should not 
have intervened. And James should have told him to stop when he did. 
Harry would never let Ron hex a lone Draco after he, Harry, had 
disarmed him. In fact, Ron would never even think of it, precisely 
because it's not a noble thing to do.
>
Valky:
Point well made and taken.
I will reiterate a post from earlier on this thread where I did 
insist that I do not intend to argue that James or Sirius actions 
were noble. 
I am here to prove that J and S are OK, really. That we miss the 
point with the pensieve scene, that the brave and noble James is 
there, just harder to see.

  
> Valky wrote :
> >  So far they had managed to disarm Snape one 
> > on one. James had allowed Sirius to vent on him and then.....
> > .....well Snape never backed down. Not that they ever should 
have expected him too, but they did. Snape instead swears at them, 
curses and hexes and such that James gets huffy, as in "Hey I just 
bested you in battle dude, show a little respect for your 
superiors.".
> 
> Del replies :
> Snape never had any opportunity to actually point his wand at 
James, he wasn't given enough time for that. James was no superior 
to Snape, and both James and Snape knew that.
> 


Valky:
You have made my point exactly. 
Snape had no opportunity to point his wand at James. 
And James was no superior to Snape.
Now I ask you, Del, If James had been a second slower in drawing out 
his own wand, what would have happened do you think? Would Snape 
have thrown the stupefy or impedimenta, maybe the expelliarmus hmmm?

Del:
> And honestly, I don't see anything that dangerous in a curse that
> opens a gash in a cheek. A fist can open your lip or break any 
part of your body : just as dangerous.
>

Valky:
What if..... Del, Snape was aiming at James throat.

 
> Valky wrote :
> > Snape only wants James head on a platter. He even ignores 
Sirius, despite Sirius best efforts to get his attention. 
> 
> Del replies :
> Snape knows that James is the leader. If he can win over James,
> chances are Sirius will leave him alone. Snape also knows that 
James is the one with the cool head and the sadistic trait, hence 
the most dangerous one. Sirius is much more hot-blooded and straight-
forward : a much easier opponent.
> 


Valky:
Yes it could well be all of that too. 
Except that I am sure Snape thinks Sirius is a sadist in this case 
because he is the one that impedimentas him. 
And that I am pretty sure Snape thinks he's more dangerous than both 
of them he's just frustrated he can't show it.
He does threaten them with a manner that speaks of someone who 
considers himself dangerous.

And I will stick with my Snape already knows what Sirius has to say 
and just doesn't care because its only talk. 


> 
> Valky wrote :
> > What matters, in the context of my statement, is that Snape IS 
an example, because he is known for his involvement in this part of 
the WW. 
> 
> Del replies :
> Maybe, but at the moment he was attacked, he was alone and doing
> nothing reprehensible. I just don't see Harry attacking Draco when
> Draco is all alone, doing nothing wrong and not prepared. Draco 
would do that, not Harry.
>

Valky:
But James did not attack Snape when he was not prepared. They went 
for their wands at the same time. Haven't you seen any old westerns 
lately?

 
> Valky wrote :
> > James baited Snape to challenge him.
> 
> Del replies :
> No, James challenged Snape by verbally attacking him. A few 
centuries ago, people would duel because of a bad word, and 
nowadays, people still fight because they don't like what their 
neighbour said. A verbal attack is an attack, and an insult is a 
challenge. After all, when someone is insulted and doesn't react, 
isn't he considered a coward for not standing for himself ? James 
challenged Snape, not the other way around.
>

Valky:
Well yeah in way he did. The way I read the story here was that  
this was a longstanding challenge that has never been resolved.
 



> Huntergreen wrote :
>> As for teenage Snape, well, considering that he came to school 
> > > with all those ideas of dark magic, who's to say he wasn't 
raised that way? (and yes, I know Sirius was too, but Sirius was 
sorted into Gryffindor, and thus had someone else to make an 
impression on him). He was taught to behave that way, so hating 
muggle-borns was "right" and "noble" for him. Clearly, he had it the 
wrong way around, but who taught him the right way? 
> 
> Valky answered :
> > Well Sirius really wanted to but he just couldn't get Snapes 
> > attention you see........
> 
> Del replies :
> Sirius didn't want to *teach* him, he wanted to *force* him. And 
you don't show someone the way to goodness by being mean to them. 

Valky:
LOL I absolutely agree Sirius DID want to FORCE him to realise Dark 
Arts were no good. Sirius was 15 years old. He's not Dumbledore.

> 
> Valky wrote :
> > It is our choices that make us what we are.
> 
> Del replies :
> But somehow, the fact that Snape *chose*, against everything that 
had been taught to him as a child, against everything he had 
believed all his life, to follow DD in the end, doesn't count, does 
it ? Snape *chose* to work for DD and to stop using Dark Magic, but 
no, he's till and will always be evil old Snape. How logical is 
that ? And how fair ?
> 

Valky: 
Who said I was saying he will always be evil old Snape?
We KNOW he was evil then and changed his ways to now.
Are you in denial of that Del?