James the Berk?

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 105704

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" 
<delwynmarch at y...> wrote:
                         
> Valky wrote :
 It was a Dark Arts Curse, I will take that bet with anyone who 
dares.....  the precise 'case in point' to show that Snape was 
serious in battle with James, deadly serious. 
>
 
> Del frowns and calls for a truce. She's just realised that this
> particular argument won't get anywhere because...
> "You know, Valky, we still haven't got a definition of what
> constitutes Dark Magic."

 The Fox looks startled :"Why, it's obvious, isn't it ? Anything 
Snape uses at that time IS Dark Magic, that was his preferred style 
then, right?" ;D

> Del sighs :
> "Well, let's agree to disagree then, because in my mind he was 
entitled to use whatever means he could. He had been attacked for no 
reason, and not given a proper chance to defend himself. 

Fox twirls her wand between her fingers her brow furrows: 
"Why do you use 'defend' as a Snape operative in that sentence? It 
doesn't fit with all his other actions in the memory or anywhere 
else, for that matter. Why do you think he would merely have 
defended himself?"

Del's knuckles clamp tighter around her wand as the Fox continues to 
speak.... 

"Canon everywhere proves that Snape would always prefer to be doing 
the damage...." the Fox suddenly closes her mouth and backs 
away. "ahh Del... I....."
>
Del's wand is raised; "I'm disappointed that he should choose such a 
violent curse to retaliate, but I feel it was his right to do 
whatever he wanted to get out of a situation he had not done 
anything to get into. And I'm still not convinced it was a Dark 
Curse !"
> 
Fox pushes her blonde hair back from her eyes and surveys her 
opponent with interest: "hmm Ok we'll move on then.... for now..."

Del: On to the next point, then :-)

> 
> Valky wrote : 
> > "...only because you're too noble to use them..." ring a bell to 
> > you at all?
> 
> Del answered :
>  "Who wants to see me take off Snivelly's pants ?"
>  Ring another bell ?
>  
> Valky replied : We aren't up to that bit yet, Del. 
> 
> Del smiles : Ah bah, you're the one who started with the out-of-
context quotes :-) And anyway, I don't *care* if James was upset or 
whatever. In my opinion, anyone willing to use such methods, 
whatever the circumstances, is not noble at heart. Being willing to 
humiliate someone that thoroughly is the antithesis of nobility in 
my idea.
>

Valky:
Darn it Del! Excellent point. My only argument is that it isn't 
really relevant to my mention of nobility in James because I 
absolutely believe he abandoned all sense of being right or good the 
moment he felt the humiliation of Lily's rejection.
Which is why I soooo *totally didn't* want to be made to argue this 
in this context.

 
> Valky wrote :
> > Snape never takes his eyes off James. There is a silent dialogue 
> > between them. Sirius is of no consequence in the slightest to 
Snape. Theres a huge backstory in just that small fact.
> 
> Del replies :
> I agree, but that doesn't change the fact that James was not alone.
> Harry couldn't care less about Crabbe and Goyle, he ignores them
> superbly, but when they accompany Draco when Draco attacks Harry, 
it's still considered 3-on-1.
> Sirius was there, he constituted a second source of danger, forcing
> Snape to keep his eyes on both James and Sirius, and he took turns
> attacking Snape. Even if Snape only considered Sirius as an 
extension of James (like Harry does with C&G), it doesn't change the 
fact that it was still 2 wizards against one.
>


Valky:
Yes and yes and yes... But Snape never took his eyes off James. 
Sirius never really forced him to do anything. 
That's all I can say about that because I have run out of canon to 
prove it. You can have this one, if you want. But, be sure that I'll 
be back, to reclaim it when the backstory is revealed. :D


> 
> Valky wrote :
> >  I think that Sirius and James were neither intending to punish 
> > Snape for his beliefs OR his acts. But to demonstrate a position 
> > of authority over them for its own end.
> > In other words they stood over what he represented, to them, 
> > entirely for the reason of standing over it. Nothing else.
> 
> Del replies :
> Which in my eyes was both a perfectly unjustified and stupid thing 
to do. Unjustified because they have no right to harass a student 
because of his convictions, and stupid because they used evil to 
fight evil, which is always unproductive, if not counterproductive.
>

Valky:
On point one 'unjustified': I am not trying to justify it. I am just 
pointing it out. That's enough to show that there was a deeper level 
to the scene.

On point two 'stupid': They are only 15 and they ARE stupid. Thats 
all I have to say about that.


 
> Valky wrote :
> > My point is HE DOES change them to become the Snape we know in 
the modern day HP World, whereas what is in James heart does not 
change.
> 
> Del replies :
> Sorry Valky, but I'm afraid the whole point of James is that he 
*did* change :-) She would not go out with 15-year-old James, but 
she married his 18-year-old counterpart.
Lily said it herself : James was no better than Snape. 

Valky:
Ok this is one of those 'things you don't mean, but do mean' things.
1. Lily was furious! You say things you don't mean when your 
furious. (It's good enough for those people on the list who use it 
to claim that Snape wasn't really a racist in the scene :p)

2. Sirius and Lupin floo conversation..... "Lily never hated James" 
I put a little more weight on this statement obviously than you do.
(btw how on earth did Sirius' words become the ones we can question? 
Why is he a liar? Did someone just suppose he could be lying and 
then a bunch of people ran away with it? I, for one, will not be 
throwing out what Sirius says as canon.)

Del:
 Both James and Snape changed drastically
> after the Pensieve scene, even if James changed earlier than Snape.
>
Valky:
Well that remains to be seen. 
For now, I am simply not convinced that James needed to change all 
that drastically.