James the Berk?

[delwynmarch]

No: HPFGUIDX 105733


Valky asked :
> Are you sure that you are not too quickly dismissing Sirius' and 
> Lupin's adult statement, to Harry, that Snape was indeed dangerous?

Del replies :
No I'm not. But I'm saying that a) they probably exagerrated, and b)
James and Sirius were just as dangerous as Snape was. Maybe they
wouldn't use the same tools as Snape would, but I DO believe that they
could be every bit as dangerous as Snape if they chose to. So I just
don't buy your theory that by attacking Snape, James was putting
himself in big danger, sorry :-) Especially not by attacking him in
front of half the school.


Valky wrote :
> So I separate the baiting from the wand match. Because once the wands
> are out Snape is deadly serious, the situation becomes serious. The 
> baiting is a crime by James. But when Snape has his wand in his hand 
> the one sidedness ends. He will only attack James, and it will not be
>  pretty if he wins.

Del replies :
Yes... Except that Snape's wand was never *truly* out to start with !
Canon says that "his wand was halfway into the air" when James
Disarmed him. And if James had not been interrupted by Lily, Snape
would *never* have been able to get his wand back until James decided
he was over with the fight. It was one-sided all the way and would
have stayed that way without Lily.
And as a matter of fact, the situation as it was between Lily arrived
was NOT "deadly serious" : it was in fact *lots of fun* for James and
Sirius, and they were in *absolutely no danger*.

Valky wrote :
> The real difference is that neither Harry nor Draco are practicing 
> the kind of magic that Snape WAS as a young man. 

Del replies :
Two things.
First, we STILL don't know WHAT exactly Snape was practicing. The
Marauders told us that he was deep in Dark Magic and knew more curses
than most 7th-years, but that doesn't mean *anything*. They don't give
us *details*, they don't tell us *what* it was Snape was doing or had
learned that was so horrible. After all, Harry is teaching the DA to
fight in their *fifth* year, so one could argue that maybe all those
students would not even have been able to properly *Disarm* their
opponent by the time they got in 7th year, if Harry had not been there
to teach them ! If *that* is the kind of curses Snape knew, well, I
don't see that it was so horrible.
Second : Draco's family *is* deep into Dark Arts, so one could argue
that Draco himself was knee-deep into the Dark Arts when he arrived to
Hogwarts. In CoS, he did know how to use the Serpensortia curse, and I
doubt just knowing the incantation is enough to make the curse work.
And still, Harry doesn't consider Draco a deadly opponent just because
of his Dark Arts connections.

Valky wrote :
> Draco isn't dangerous in the books so far. And as such, since we 
> compare James with him, it leads to the conclusion that neither was 
> James. But, we have canon, that Snape was. 
 
Del replies :
Our only canon that Snape was dangerous is that the Marauders said so.
So basically it's a matter of them telling Harry : I can tell you that
Snape was dangerous because I say so. Not exactly convincing IMO.
And Draco isn't dangerous because he's a *coward*, he's always hiding
behind Crabbe and Goyle.

Valky wrote :
> I am here to prove that J and S are OK, really. That we miss the 
> point with the pensieve scene, that the brave and noble James is 
> there, just harder to see.

Del replies :
You still haven't convinced me, you know :-) ?
I see a James who is coward enough to let his buddy come and protect
him during a fight that he purposefully and one-sidedly picked (and I
don't care about the background story : Snape was not doing anything
to  James at that time, that's the only thing that matters to me).
And I see a James that won't respect another human being's basic
dignity by threatening to take off his underwear, and maybe even doing it.
I don't see the "brave and noble James" AT ALL !

Valky asked :
> If James had been a second slower in drawing out his own wand, what 
> would have happened do you think? Would Snape have thrown the stupefy
> or impedimenta, maybe the expelliarmus hmmm?

Del replies :
You're making two major assumptions with *no proof* here, Valky :-) No
good, no good, won't convince me with that :-)
First, you're assuming that James drew his wand when Snape drew his. I
refute that by saying that you have no canon proof. And I go even
further by saying that since James was *obviously* trying to pick a
fight with Snape, it was only *logical* that he would *already* have
his own wand out. Neither of us have canon to support our idea, but at
least I have *logic* on my side ;-P
And of course you also assume that Snape would have used some nasty
curse straight away. No proof, no proof at all, says I !!

I, Del, wrote :
> > And honestly, I don't see anything that dangerous in a curse that
> > opens a gash in a cheek. A fist can open your lip or break any 
> > part of your body : just as dangerous.

Valky answered :
> What if..... Del, Snape was aiming at James throat.

Del replies :
OI, Valky :-) *Another* supposition ? You're losing your touch !

Valky wrote :
> I am sure Snape thinks Sirius is a sadist in this case because he is 
> the one that impedimentas him. 

Del replies :
In my idea, if anyone is a sadist in Snape's mind, it's James.
Impedimenta is a curse commonly used in duelling, it doesn't imply a
nasty mind or intention. It's the equivalent of making your adversary
fall in a fist fight.
Scourgify, on the other hand, is a *cleaning* spell that is *not*
supposed to be used on a human being. The simple fact of using it on
someone is an insult : it means that the user is reviling his opponent
to the level of a dirty object.

Valky wrote :
> And that I am pretty sure Snape thinks he's more dangerous than both 
> of them he's just frustrated he can't show it.
> He does threaten them with a manner that speaks of someone who 
> considers himself dangerous.

Del replies :
Draco does that all the time ! He's even become a bit of a joke by the
end of OoP, because of it :-) And still Harry doesn't consider him the
least bit dangerous, does he ?

Valky wrote :
> But James did not attack Snape when he was not prepared. They went 
> for their wands at the same time. Haven't you seen any old westerns 
> lately?

Del replies :
Nope :-) (I'm not the western type)
However I *have* re-read the Pensieve scene several times recently,
and I didn't see that James and Snape drew their wands together. As I
said earlier, Logic has it that James would *already* have had his
wand out. And I maintain that Snape was not prepared.

Valky wrote :
> Well yeah in way he did. The way I read the story here was that  
> this was a longstanding challenge that has never been resolved.

Del replies :
Just like between Harry and Draco. And yet we never see either of them
just coming and hexing the other one without a reason, no matter how
feeble.

You know Valky, even if James was 100 percent sure that Snape would
hex him straight away, he still had NO RIGHT to do what he did. He
basically pusnished Snape because of what he (James) thought Snape
*would* do. That's simply not fair. You can't punish people because of
what *you think* they will do, you have to wait and see if they will
do it, and *then* you can punish them. In order to be *justified* in
mistreating Snape the way he did, James should have let Snape hex him
first. Then Sirius would have Disarmed Snape, and they would have
waited together for James to recover. Then Sirius would have handed
Snape his wand back, he would have stepped away from the duel and not
intervened anymore (one-on-one), and James and Snape would have had a
real, fair, duel.

Valky wrote :
> LOL I absolutely agree Sirius DID want to FORCE him to realise Dark 
> Arts were no good. Sirius was 15 years old. He's not Dumbledore.

Del replies :
Does that mean that Huntergreen was right, and we don't know of
anybody who tried to *teach* Snape that the Dark Arts were not the
right way to go ?

Valky wrote : 
> Who said I was saying he will always be evil old Snape?
> We KNOW he was evil then and changed his ways to now.
> Are you in denial of that Del?

Del replies :
Hey, *I* am not the one in denial here :-) *You* are the one who don't
want to see that James was a real berk in the Pensieve scene, with not
 a single trace of nobility :-)

I mean, honestly ! He even tried to *force* Lily to go out with him !

Del, who's not in denial, no she's not, she denies it, yes she does...