Two Wormtails was Re: Plot in OotP (wand confusion)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 118444


 Pippin, quoting PoA:
> 
> "Harry didn't understand what Snape was talking about. Nor, 
> apparently, did Lupin."
<snip>
> By now, you've  realized that the line was a direct quote, not 
> commentary from me. It beautifully illustrates the unreliability of 
> our narrator, who is quite mistaken about what Lupin knows. The 
> full passage also illustrates unequivocally that Lupin is not 
> above equivocating. He says that the map looks like a 
> parchment that insults whoever writes on it, and that it looks like 
> a Zonko's product to him, when all the time he obviously knows 
> it's a map. So, can we really trust *anything* Lupin says that 
> sounds like it might be equivocal? I don't.
<snip>

> Khinterberg wrote:
> But it surprises me how easily Snape lets one of the said 
> manufacturers have it back, although that could be due simply to 
> there being students around, and we wouldn't want them to
> get too suspicious.  Also though, I wonder why Lupin was so 
> surprised that Harry did not want to turn the map in straightaway.  
> Lupin was ateenager who helped write this map, he surely 
> knows how it feels to be young boy getting into mischief?  Harry 
> has never been too concerned with a threat over his own life, at 
> thirteen years old I don't think keeping the map would have 
> bothered him at all.  
> 
> Pippin replied:
> 
> Yes, this is the crux of the confusion. If Snape 
> 1)definitely knows that Lupin made the parchment
> 2) has believed all along that Lupin is working with Sirius
> 3) thinks that the parchment may contain instructions for getting 
> to Hogsmeade
> 
>  then it would be madness to let Lupin walk away with the map. 
<snip>
> 
> Evidently Snape is not sure enough of his case to insist that the 
> parchment be taken to Dumbledore, and that makes me think 
> he's not quite sure who made it or what it does.
> 
> Lupin wants Harry to see that if the map fell into Sirius's hands, it 
> could help him get into the castle, or so he says. The telling thing 
> is that after making a big deal of Harry's not turning it in, Lupin 
> also does not do so. 
> 
Renee wrote:
> Who Wormtail is and what exactly Snape knows are two different 
> mysteries. As you say, the first one is solved later in the books. 
> On the later, we can only speculate but it doesn't change the fact 
> that the first one is solved. (Pulling Occam's Razor again.)
> 
> Pippin responded:
> The trouble with Occam's razor in this context is that we're only 
> pretending that events in the Potterverse are related by cause 
> and effect.  Wielders of Occam's razor in the real world are not 
> allowed to argue, for example, that God obviously *meant* to 
> have the planets rotate around the Earth, and evidence to the 
> contrary is just a Flint. If we are allowed to eliminate evidence at 
> will, then Occam's razor can be used to prove anything. If we're 
> not, then the case for two Wormtails and ESE!Lupin is 
> immeasurably strengthened.
> 

Carol responds:
While I agree with almost everything you've said up to this point,
including especially the observation on the unreliability of the
narrator, I think you're overstating the case in this paragraph. All
that is "strengthened" by the evidence you've cited (and reasonably
interpreted) is the deduction that Lupin knows more than he's
revealing to Harry--or to Dumbledore. Lupin knows quite well that
Sirius can get into Hogwarts through the secret passages shown on the
map, but to turn in the map to Dumbledore would be to confess that
he's been concealing this knowledge, and more besides. 

But this interpretation, which I don't think can be disputed, does not
lead inevitably to the conclusion that Lupin is ESE!, only that he's
too weak to do what he knows to be the right thing. Just as he failed
to perform his duties as a prefect in the Pensieve scene for fear of
losing James's and Sirius's friendship, he fails to perform his duty
as a teacher for fear of losing Dumbledore's trust by confessing what
he knows or suspects about his former friend's knowledge and
abilities. Ironically, his action *ought* to forfeit the very trust
he's so concerned about because it proves that he is indeed
untrustworthy. He is, in a sense, aiding and abetting a man he
believes to be a murderer--exactly as Snape has suspected him of doing
all along. Later we see him calmly acquiescing to Sirius's will,
helping him to restore Peter to human form (no harm in that) but also
intending to help him commit murder. IOW, he is willing to perform a
spell that could send him to Azkaban and send Sirius to the Dementors
just to prove his friendship to Sirius. There are serious flaws in his
thinking, serious flaws in his priorities, but they don't make him a
spy for Voldemort or a traitor to James. And they certainly don't lead
to the conclusion that he's Wormtail II.


Pippin wrote: 
> Exactly what Snape knows is relevant because it speaks to the 
> issue of how he learned of the nicknames and whether he 
> knows who they belong to. Remember that the whole plot in PoA 
> revolves around a case of mistaken identity. Everyone thinks that 
> Sirius was the secret-keeper and must have been the spy, 
> though he was neither. Now everyone thinks that Peter was the 
> secret-keeper which is self-evident. But it is not self-evident that 
> he must have been the spy just because the spy was known as 
> Wormtail. <snip>

Carol responds:
What Snape knows is relevant to the question of what happened in the
so-called Prank and to what extent he brought the danger on himself. I
don't see how it's relevant to the idea of a second Wormtail, which as
far as I can tell grow solely out of your reading of the Cedric AK
scene. (If Harry could fiddle with his wand to get it into the right
position to Accio the portkey, Wormtail could adjust the bundle in his
arms to AK a boy who had his wand out but wasn't expecting to be
murdered. "Kill the spare!" is not sufficiently clear to convey that
message to anyone except Wormtail.)  

Carol, who enjoys Pippin's arguments but thinks that in this case
she's seeing what she wants to see