DD and the rat (was:Re: Minerva McGonagall-/Dumbledore)

[Nora Renka]

No: HPFGUIDX 115645


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:

> Nora:
> > Why would Voldie kill someone who was already (so far as we 
> can read  canon, and it hasn't been contradicted) his spy?  That 
> part of your  argument just doesn't make sense.  IF the SK had 
> been loyal, then  Voldie would have had to torture him to get the 
> secret out--and there probably would have been a body 
> elsewhere, *then* two bodies at GH.
> > 
> > I think you're arguing with the assumption that Peter wasn't 
> actually  Voldie's spy already, but things work out so much more 
> smoothly if  you take that canon as given and then work out why 
> things happened as they did.<
> > 
> 
> Pippin:
> More smoothly? Could you elaborate? If Peter spied successfully 
> for more than a year, why break down so quickly when Lupin 
> and Sirius questioned him in the Shrieking Shack? 

First on the more smoothly, which was in answer to Kneasy's last 
contention; it explains why Voldie didn't *kill* Peter, in the first 
place.  With one notable exception (and some Evil Overlord 
shenanigans), Voldie is good at killing people--this is canon, 
right?  But Voldie is not the type to kill his own without some real 
provocation, it seems.  Nope, he's content because Peter gives him 
the info that he wants; it's just that no one predicted the disaster 
that ensued.

One starts to wonder about Sirius' account of the DEs screaming at 
Peter in prison; unless you want to do the 'Oh, Sirius is lying out 
of his ass' (which is always a dangerous move to make because it can 
then be done to ANYTHING), that's an interesting statement.

Two, Peter really is under a lot of stress.  I suspect that his 
functions as spy did not involve things like direct confrontation, 
but rather the passing of information here, there--and he's the type 
of person who people don't *notice*, so that's a good role for him.  
Now, put him in a situation where he's 1) trapped 2) confronted by 
some very, very angry people 3) *outnumbered*, and you have a very 
different reaction. 

Following off of that, Peter's reactions look to me like: attempt to 
weasel out of the accusations, non-denial when confronted, attempted 
shift in tactics (from 'I didn't do it' to 'Well, what the hell did 
you expect me to do?'), shift into plea for mercy.  He's behaving 
like a trapped creature, which is what he is.  "Because you never did 
anything for anyone unless you could see what was in it for 
you." ... "Wh--what was there to be gained by refusing him?"

Also, we get into the complications of your invoked ESE!Lupin theory, 
and I'm sure you don't need a reiteration of why the theory is 
ingenious yet problematic, right? :)  In fact, I'm getting rather 
confused about how it all fits into this.  Are you postulating a 
series of events in which Peter *was* the SK (this is not absolutely 
proven, but close), but not the spy beforehand--a situation where 
Voldie went and got to him when he became SK/because he was SK, 
tipped off by ESE!Lupin?  In that case, no, I don't know why Voldie 
wouldn't kill Peter and get rid of one more (if this is true, loyal) 
Order member.  But it doesn't make a particular amount of sense, 
while the more straightforward reading answers more of my questions...

...provisionally, natch.

> They hadn't a shred of proof--all Peter had to do was tell his 
> story with a little more conviction and Harry would have believed 
> him. 'Sirius betrayed the Potters, and I went into hiding because 
> the Death Eaters who were Sirius's new friends would want 
> revenge.' 

I think Harry is confused and annoyed enough that he'd have some more 
questions; why not talk to DD if you're innocent, why have you been a 
rat for x number of years, why fake your death...there's a little 
more to it than the 'sincerity' issue, below.

> If Peter  was liar enough to bamboozle Dumbledore and the rest 
> of the Order for a whole year in the old days, surely he wouldn't 
> fear questioning  now?

This is a big question, I agree...but I think it's in part because of 
the situation that he's in.
 
> It wasn't logic that convinced Harry, it was Sirius's sincerity. But
> if Peter were the real spy, surely the appearance of sincerity 
> would be second nature to him? He'd have to be as cool and 
> convincing as Barty Jr to have  pulled it off in the first place.
> 
> Consider Riddle's words as he brags about framing Hagrid, "I 
> admit, even *I* was surprised how well the plan worked. I 
> thought *someone* must realize that Hagrid couldn't possibly be 
> the Heir of Slytherin. [...]as though Hagrid had the brains, or the 
> power!" [emphasis JKR's]

Well, it's canon that Dumbledore had his strong suspicions about Tom, 
and never suspected Hagrid, right?  So far as I can tell, though, 
things point to DD not being the senior man in control, and at times 
(and this is a general point) having rather limited power to cut 
through the complacent bureaucracy of the WW.
 
> Does Peter have the brains or the power to have been 
> Voldemort's spy for a whole year?

There is only incidental support for this, but I'll keep it as a 
possibility until it gets sporked: everyone underestimates/ed Peter, 
in skill and in other areas.  He did pull a fast one on Black at 
their confrontation, it seems--likely because he was prepared for it, 
and in contrast to above with the SS scene, it's a one-on-one 
confrontation, not something where he's full-out trapped.  He's 
skillful enough to deal with Bertha Jorkins well-enough, dismissive 
though Voldie may be of him.  Dramatic irony would request that 
Voldie's underestimation/dismissal of Peter play some role in the 
denoument.

One more issue, perhaps, to think of: we can surmise, I think, that 
DD gave Black a good one-over when he had him alone in the office.  
Ergo, DD, when he exerts the effort, knows when he is being lied to.  
Now, you could postulate Black as ESE!Lupin's patsy in this regard, 
but maybe, just maybe, DD actually got to see some of Black's 
memories about the way this all got carried out--things like talking 
with Lily and James and Peter, a first-person view of some other 
things, etc.  An interesting possibility.

-Nora really hopes JKR will throw us a Wormtail tidbit soon