[HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and Harry again.

[feklar]

No: HPFGUIDX 113359

> > Feklar
> >
> >  So where an 11 yo Sirius might not know a different way to react
> > or that there was even anything wrong with reacting to things he
> didn't like
> > with abuse, by 13 he had to have known he was behaving badly.  By
> 15 and 17,
> > there is really no excuse IMO.
> >
>
>
> Alla:
>
>
> Well, he did learn that his family way was no good eventually,
> didn't he? At sixteen he did leave and never came back.
> So, he did learn few years later.


feklar:

As I said earlier, there is a difference between rejecting his family and
rejecting their ways; to me, he never seems to have turned from their
ways -- or at least the "ways" I have imputed to them.

> > Feklar:
> >
> > In school, there are indications he was abusive not only to Snape
> but also
> > other students (and the Shack incident showed he was not only
> murderous, but
> > indifferent to the well-being of others, namely Remus).
>
>
> Alla:
>  I won't go into Prank now. Let me just say again - too much of
> eveidence missing for me to conclude that he was murderous and
> indifferent to the well-being of others.

feklar:

Umm, that's true for just about everything about the Marauders and Snape.
Why ask a question about a topic with little objective evidence if you don't
want to get answers based on little objective evidence?

> Let me ask you one question though. In the PoA, in the Shack does
> Remus sound too ... upset to you when he talks about Prank. Does he
> sound like someone who was incredibly hurt by Sirius?

Feklar:

I think he sounds very uncomfortable and some of the awkward pauses, like
the one before "amusing," read like an adult trying to put the best face he
can on something he is forced to tell children he thinks of as innocent.  I
do think it's telling that he did believe Sirius betrayed the Potters and
that he was using dark magi he "learned from Voldemort" to get into the
castle.  Remus clearly thought Sirius had a lot of darkness in him and was
fully capable of being evil.

> Nope, I want to find the missink link first. But of course you maybe
> right and I am wrong.

Feklar:

I don't think there is any such thing as right or wrong in literary
analysis.  Even if JKR has a character affirmatively say something, it's
always possible it will be an unreliable narrator and the world can continue
to debate it.  Actually, I tend to think the more fully realized a character
is, the more unreliable a narrator they will be, because they will always
give a subjective view.

> Feklar.
> > In GOF, the dragon.
>
> Alla:
>
> I don't understand. Why would you think that Solution that Sirius
> offered was more violent than what other contestants did?

Two contestants used distraction, Harry used evasion, Durmstrang used
Sirius' suggested attack which harmed the dragon and destroyed its eggs.  I
would think it's pretty clear how it was more violent.


> Feklar:
> > In POA, dragging Ron off and breaking his leg--like with the
> dragon, he
> > chose a violent solution without regard to innocent victims.
> > 1981 Pettigrew confrontation--again, he didn't care that there
> were innocent
> > bystanders.  He had to take time to track Peter down, so he wasn't
> in the
> > "heat of battle" when he found him, he could have followed and
> waited, but
> > chose to attck without regard to the safety of others.
>
>
> Alla:
>
> Well, of course when I interpret those situations my subjective
> liking of the character kiks in. I interpet Sirius' behaviour in PoA
> as very realistic display of someone with PTSD. Someone who just
> escaped twelve years of hell and completely focused on revenge for
> the murder of his best friends.

I don't know that much about PTSD, but I do know that violence towards
others is not a primary symptom of PTSD.  Flashbacks, dissociative states,
nervousness, avoidance, panic, hyper-alertness and paranoia, yes.  But I
suspect how a person responds to those states (do they barricade themselves
and their 19 cats behind 20 years worth of newspapers in a 1 bedroom
apartment or do they attack others?) probably has more to do with their
underlying personality than the PTSD.

Alla:

> I do not think he was thinking very clearly when he went after
> Peddigrew either.

Feklar:

If your kid is caught in the crossfire of a drive-by shooting, are you going
to be ok with it if you learn the shooter had a good reason for wanting the
other dead?  Sirius had a responsibility for the bystanders' lives and by
chosing to engage in a firefight in the midst of them, he shared
responsibility for their deaths.  He should have been put away for reckless
endangerment, even if he caught Pettigrew and everyone knew he was innocent
of the Potter's deaths.

> Alla:
>
> Rejected Harry? Well, he had some James flashbacks, true, but I
> never doubted that he loved Harry for Harry and died for Harry(That
> is the partial reason why I like him so much and still hope that he
> will come back in some shape or form)


Feklar:

How could he love Harry for Harry?  They didn't even know each other.  In
fact, the more they got to know each other, the less they actually liked
each other.  For Sirius, Harry was the ideal youth that he lost and hoped to
relive.  For Harry, Sirius was his last chance at leaving the Dursleys and
having a semblance of a "normal" family life.  At Grimauld Place Harry seems
to clue in a bit, that that dream would never happen, even if Sirius could
adopt him, but when Sirius dies and the dream is gone for good, he reverts
to his pre-Grimauld Place vision of Sirius and that's what he grieves for.

> > Feklar:
> >
> > I specified he was unreliable about Sanpe's character.
>
> Alla:
> And I was talking about his specific relaibility about Snape's
> character. he and Snape are similar in so many ways. Theat is why I
> think he is reliable, regardless whether he hates Snape or not.

I don't think anyone who has strong feelings about someone can possibly be a
reliable judge of their character.  Whether they love or hate, their
evaluation is always going to be tainted.  Above and beyond that, I think
Sirius never truly saw Snape in the first place, which makes him even more
unreliable.  but that is my theory to explain Sirius' apparently irrational
hatred of Snape.

Feklar