In defense of Molly /Molly's treatment of Arthur

phoenixgod2000 jmrazo at hotmail.com
Fri Aug 5 05:12:53 UTC 2005


No: HPFGUIDX 136508

> Susan

> > Good post!!  In regards to the Browbeaten Arthur theory, 
remember 
> I think what bothers me is that I don't see Arthur at all 
browbeaten.
> I think it's a put down of both him and Molly that is not fair.

Arthur does do things counter to Molly's wishes on a number of 
occasions and almost all of them he does behind her back. It's 
never, no dear, you are just wrong, its 'shush, come over here 
Harry'. What kind of relationship is it when the man has go around 
his wife in secret whenever he does something she doesn't like?  
Molly is rude to a lot of people, her husband just happens to be one 
of them in my opinion.

> I haven't heard a whole lot about Petunia being "brow 
beaten"...even 
> though Vernon makes most of the decisions. (In PS/SS he takes the 
> family on a wild, mad flight from the owl post, regardless of 
> Petunia's horror). It's only in OoP that Petunia says that Harry 
will 
> stay, and we're surprised because we're used to her being mostly 
> quiet and letting Vernon rant and rave.

Huh, I always saw Petunia as the puller of Vernons strings. It's not 
like Harry was ever wanted by Vernon in the first place, but still 
he took him in because Petunia made him. I give her more credit than 
you do, I guess. To each their own.
 
> Upon further reflection, I am reacting badly to the browbeaten 
Arthur 
> theory because I believe it is a gendered theory -- and 
specifically 
> anti-female.

I take offense to that remark.  I guess I am for thinking that Molly 
should treat Arthur with the same respect he treats her with.

Somehow I will muddle on with life.
 
> I took a long moratorium from this list in part because of the 
anti-
> Molly and anti-Hermione posts. Assertive (or heavens forbid loud)
> women are called bossy. Assertive men are seen as normal. Do you 
> notice that no one calls Ron "bossy" when he is trying to tell 
Ginny 
> how to run her social life? 

No, people call Ron all sorts of other things.  How about the R/Hr 
shippers who seem to think that Ron needs to be *trained* in order 
to become a suitable mate for Hermione like he was some kind of dog 
who needs to be made aware of the fact he shouldn't crap on the 
couch? 

How about all the lovely names thrown around for CAPSLOCK!Harry? He 
likes to yell too, and with justifiably more reason than Molly does. 

Yeah, I don't like Hermione. I don't like her obnoxiousness over the 
fake felix potion. I don't like her self importance. I don't like 
the way she uses magically conjured birds to attack Ron for daring 
to kiss another girl besides her.  Those aren't the actions of an 
assertive person, those are the actions of giant ^&^%*

I have no problem with assertive women, literary or real. What I 
have a problem with is women who confuse assertiveness with 
obnoxiousness.

A good example of an assertive but not obnoxious woman in the 
series: McGonagall. Another would be Madam Pomfry. Molly Weasley is 
no Minerva McGonagall.

> But in other ways, Molly and Arthur do not conform to highly rigid 
> gendered roles. Molly is loud, she shouts, she makes her opinions 
> known. This is contrary to what men and women are supposed to be 
like.

Or, you know, basic standards of politeness.
 
> I see a lot of men who are really nice guys, negotiate with their 
> female partners, do their share of the household work, and child 
> care -- and are seen as p***y whipped -- this is a term of 
contempt 
> and derison for men who are browbeaten or controlled by their 
wives.

Except for we don't see Arthur negotiate with Molly at all. She just 
yells at him til he does what she wants or goes behind her back.  
Imagine if Arthur was the loud one in the relationship. Would you be 
as okay with him talking the Molly like that? 

I wouldn't be.
 
> What is behind this contempt? It's MEN who are supposed to do the 
> controlling of WOMEN..who are supposed to wear the pants, rule the 
> roost..and if you're not a REAL man (and a real man means making 
> decisions and controlling women), then you must be like a woman, 
that 
> is, contemptible.

Or no one in the relationship is supposed to rule the other. You 
could be a team instead of playing power games with the other. This 
is why I'm not married yet. I don't want to dominate my wife but 
neither do I want to surrender to her.  It looks to me like Arthur 
has just surrendered to Molly.
 
> Because Molly and Arthur share decisions, most people see Molly as 
> dominating him. This makes them hostile to Molly and contemptuous 
or 
> dismissing of Arthur.

But once again, they don't really share all that many decisions. At 
least not that I can recall.
 
> Of course, any time one person is at home most of the time with 
the 
> children, and the other is working long hours, the person at home 
is 
> going to have more role in child rearing and will oftentimes (not 
> always) be the on the spot disciplinarian.

It's not his relationship with the kids that bothers me or her 
disciplining of them. It's her treating Arthur like an extra child 
and disciplining him.  I've heard it on the list many times that 
Arthur is like an extra child she's raising. That is demeaning to 
him. 


> Arthur is a great guy. More evidence. He arrives at the Dursleys, 
and 
> is genuinely concerned about Dudley. He becomes angry at Fred and 
> George about the Ten-Tongue Toffee.

I agree with you. Arthur is a great guy. My favorite Arthur scene is 
when he asks (or tells) the Dursleys to say goodbye to Harry. There 
was some steel in Arthur during that scene in my view.  There just 
aren't enough of those.

> I think too many see Arthur as not a "real" man because he's not 
> ambitious. He's happy in his low end job at the Ministry...and 
Muggle 
> Studies is "soft". It's not like being an Auror, or an Unspeakable.

Once again you're putting words in my mouth (I am the guy who 
started this argument). I never mentioned anything about Arthur 
lacking ambition or whether or not he is a real man. I think the 
Molly/Arthur relationship is a symptom of Rowling larger issues. As 
I talked about in a previous post I think she is, in general, very 
down on fathers. Just about every instance of Arthur being a strong 
father figure was talked about as either in the past or off screen. 
We almost never see him being tough. The best father we see in the 
series is generally portrayed as a sweet befuddled man who does what 
his wife tells him to in most situations.

It's the same thing in sitcoms. How many sitcoms are out there with 
stupid/weak/disengaged men with long suffering much more intelligent 
wives. despite what you say about anti-female bigotry I think there 
is far more anti male than you acknowledge.  Arthur is a victim of 
it.
 
phoenixgod2000






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