SHIP:Remus/Tonks and real life experiences (long)

[Lissa Hess]

No: HPFGUIDX 136926


guz:
Hey, I consider falling in love to be quite an emotional upheaval! ;-
) Anyway, I read JKR's bit on her website about the Order using the
patroni to communicate, but we still don't really know how it works.
Does the patronus speak?

Lissa:

This is something I'd really, really like to know.  And you're right- it is 
interesting that Snape immediately recognizes Tonks's Patronus.

I think the other thing that bothers me about her Patronus shift- and this 
is one of those over-analyzing things again- is that the wolf is NOT 
something like James's stag.  The werewolf is a part of himself that causes 
Remus a great deal of pain and suffering, and is something he tries to 
hide.  Like I said- that's overanalyzing.  There's two different ways to 
take it: Tonks loves him despite that, or (more realistically) how else do 
you symbolize Remus without resorting to a Force-ghost Patronus?  I've put 
thought into that one as well because for the purposes of fanfic, I've made 
Lily's Patronus into Remus (although very platonically), and I've had to do 
the same thing.

guz:
I agree- there's still more to Snape than meets the eye. The thing
is, Snape and Tonks are completely different personality types.
Tonks wears her heart on her sleeve (what Snape would call weak).
Snape is also a super Occlumens and a double agent (who he's a
double agent for, we don't know). There is no way he could have
stayed alive this long if he couldn't control his emotions with
respect to his magic. We've seen him lose his temper a few times,
but it's never seemed to cause unwanted magic to happen. I have no
idea if the idea of a changing patronus will become a significant
plot point. It may have been a throw-away thing.

Lissa:

Yeah- I have no idea, either.  It's not a theory I'm especially attached 
to- it's just one of the circumstances that would get me to shut up my 
whining about the Patronus change ;)  (The other two would be if we find 
out Remus saved her life, or if we find out Remus's Patronus changed to 
reflect her.)

I agree that falling in love can be an emotional upheaval.  But the thing 
that makes me so uncomfortable about Tonks's Patronus change is that it's 
coupled with so many other behaviors that bother me- she's moping, the 
sapping of her powers, the breakdown in the hospital scene, etc., added to 
the fact we see no real indication of Remus's interest from his side.  It's 
too many things for me to still respect a character I'd previously really 
liked for her spunk.  I mean, she sassed Moody.  How many people would have 
the guts to do that? :)  But anyway... will Snape's Patronus change?  Who 
knows, but if Snape's- or someone else's Patronus- DOES change, I'll have 
more respect for that plot decision.

And that's really what it all is here.  I certainly accept that Tonks and 
Remus is canon, I just have no respect at all for the way it was carried out.

guz:
Yup. I was chuckling throughout the book at what was obviously (as
others have mentioned) a checklist of stuff thrown in for the fans:
The fans wonder about Zabini? Here he is! The fans wonder if Snape's
a vampire? Nope, we'll introduce you to a real one! The fans wonder
if Harry will use a time turner in his final battle? Nope, they're
all smashed! I actually enjoyed that, though, and I considered it a
present from JKR to her fans.

Lissa:

It wasn't even so much the checkpoints- those amused me.  It was the 
style.  There were areas I felt really could have used some expansion- and 
things I thought we didn't need, and some passages where I felt like she 
was writing "this happened, then this happened, then this happened."  She 
was doing more telling than showing in spots.  That's what I meant by 
expository writing.  I still loved the book, and she certainly didn't fall 
into that trap all the time (I think Harry and Dumbledore's quest to the 
cave is some of the best stuff she's ever written), but I did feel it in 
this book.  It happens.

guz:
Well, they are in conflict, in a way. Since you have written
Remus/Sirius fanfic, you have obviously thought long and hard about
the relationship possibilities between those two. I tried to put
myself in your position-- please see post #136724:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136724 for what
I came up with.

Lissa:

Actually, they're not in conflict at all ;)  The only thing you have to do 
is change Remus from gay to bi.  In fact, the fic I mentioned I was writing 
takes both relationships into account.

The thing about Sirius being dead is by the time the hospital scene 
happens, Sirius has been dead a YEAR.  And they've only had 2.5 years max 
to be back together, probably less.  And I'm willing to bet money it would 
have been a hard relationship.  Lupin grieved, I'm sure.  But he's also 
been living for a year, and he's been in some very, very hard circumstances.

But one of the interesting stats is that a widower who's been happy in 
marriage will remarry a lot early than a widow that's been happy in 
marriage.  So a year is plenty of time for Remus to develop another 
attraction.  It doesn't mean (if you ship them) that he doesn't love Sirius 
anymore, but it does mean he accepts his death and craves that emotional 
warmth again.

But yeah, when you DO read it as a Remus/Sirius shipper, the ship is a slap 
in the face in some ways.

guz:
This is an excellent point, which kiricat also brought up. Please
see post #136724:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136724 for my
response.

Lissa:

I see the distinction you're drawing about difficult and 
controversial.  However, again, I maintain that it doesn't have to be.

Phillip Pullman pulled off a clearly gay couple in his His Dark Materials 
trilogy.  Of course, they were angels and sexless, so they weren't 
COMPLETELY gay, but the implication was so clear that you forgot they were 
sexless most of the time.  (It was also written a bit over the top for any 
relationship, but hey- that's beside the point ;) )

Now imagine that JKR had left out Tonks/Remus and at one point Harry had 
asked Remus about Sirius (grumbles about wishing he'd done that anyway), 
and Remus had just said "I loved him."  Does not imply sex- heck, if you 
want you can even read it as friends....  I guess more the frustration I 
feel is that homosexuality in the form we might have seen it between Sirius 
and Remus (where their sexuality is already a footnote to dynamic, 
important, interesting characters, and their love would have been entirely 
in the background) should not be a controversial issue.  Whether or not you 
believe homosexuality to be right or wrong, there are people in the world 
who are homosexual, and depicting a relationship between two of them should 
not be such a big deal- especially when that relationship is not the 
forefront of the book.

Which is why I far, far prefer to think that JKR just never intended the 
relationship (which actually is what I think) than the publishers shot her 
down.  Saves my blood pressure ;)

Lissa:
 >One of the things I found very interesting about the interview was
 >the transition in which JKR asked what the interviewers thought
 >about Lupin/Tonks. She didn't bring it up during the shipping
 >conversation. Instead, she brought it up after discussing Draco
 >and the Death Eaters, talking about how something can look really
 >attractive, and then you get involved and find out it's too much
 >for you to handle. Right from there, she said "So what do you
 >think about Lupin/Tonks?"
guz:
This *is* interesting, and though I read this interview, I didn't
pick up on this. Hmmm...


Lissa:

Heh.  Like I said, I think it's probably over-analyzing.  I think what 
REALLY happened is that conversation gets too close to plot-of-Book-7 
territory, and JKR is trying to get the conversation away from there.  But 
it's fun to make up my own version!

guz:
Please see post #136724:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136724 for my
personal interpretation of the hospital scene. In short, I believe
Lupin is a metaphor for someone who is HIV+.

Lissa:

Now, this is interesting because I've actually always considered Lupin as 
an excellent metaphor for someone who is HIV+ as well.  (I never considered 
him a metaphor for homosexuality- just flat out homosexual ;) )  And 
reading it that way... well, I STILL don't like the hospital scene.  It 
does push too many buttons with me.  It's a good analysis, and I can see 
how someone else would like it, but I don't.  Ah well.

guz:
Lissa, I don't know you, but I am guessing that the situations you
were in were different cases, and did not involve a person with a
degenerative and/or terminal illness. If I am wrong on this, please
correct me, and please, please forgive me. Let me pose a
hypothetical question: if you had fallen in love with someone, and
then discovered they had a terminal illness, what would you have
done? Tonks is begging Remus to not let his condition stand in their
way.

Lissa:

Well, that's what I was getting at with the "I've never tried to get a 
werewolf to date me" statement, but you expressed it much better in your 
other post.  ;)

See, it's not that I think you don't have a point.  I don't object to the 
relationship of Tonks/Remus... I just don't like the way it was carried 
out.  The problems I have with the hospital scene aren't so much problems 
of "Tonks is too immature" (because it's not like Sirius was Mr. Maturity 
here) or the age gap (which is workable) or any of the normal 
reasons.  It's simply I think that it was badly written and Tonks DID bring 
the subject up at the worst possible time.  Were drastic measures called 
for?  Possibly.  But I don't think JKR carried it out in an effective way- 
at least, not for me.  Remus is so private and he'd just lost Dumbledore... 
I was just cringing through that entire scene.

How would I have written it differently is probably the better question, 
and I'll send you the answer when I'm done the fic ;)

guz:
I admit, I loved that Lupin's former head-of-house, McGonagall gets
on him. It's like, "Look Remus, even your former life-advisor is
telling you you're being silly!" I wonder what she told him during
his fifth year career-counseling session? That must have been a sad
conversation.

Lissa:

It must have been.  ::sniff::  And like I said, my issue with McG's 
intrusion was I've read too many bad fanfics.  Not a valid criticism, if 
that's my reasoning ;)

guz:
Again, difference of interpretation. I took this as a ray of light
in a time of darkness. Everything is definitely not going to be
great for Lupin nor Tonks after this, but I think they will find
comfort in each other. I can't imagine (and I hope to never have the
experience) of living through a war where there's a very good chance
I wouldn't be alive the next day.

Lissa:

See, I can see that interpretation... when I look at it outside of the 
writing we were presented in Half-Blood Prince.  When you- or more 
accurately, when I- look at what we WERE given, I don't see the layers and 
depths that my mind does add later.  I see a very badly written romance 
that requires a lot of reader construction to make it palatable.  I can do 
it, but it just doesn't work for me in the text.

Lissa:
 >Well, everyone is, but the difference with Remus is he has a
 >specific enemy- and one he knows far, far too well.
guz:
Hmm... interesting interpretation here. I didn't perceive Greyback
as specific threat to Remus. He specializes in children, and Remus
was already his victim.

Lissa:

Well, here's the thing: Greyback is going to be  a specific threat to Remus 
as soon as he finds out (which he did at the tower) that Remus is not 
really on Voldemort's side.  Remus hasn't been spying so much on Voldemort- 
he's been spying on GREYBACK.  By the end of the book, between Snape and 
Remus's presence at the Tower, the Remus-is-a-spy info should be directly 
in Greyback's hands.  (Sorry, but even if you believe Snape is good, I 
don't think he'd mind seeing Remus dead.  I think part of the reason 
Sirius's body was never found is that it's not healthy for children to see 
someone dancing on a grave.  Even if Snape was lying through his teeth in 
Chapter 2, his gratitude to Bellatrix was real.)  So Remus- specifically- 
is now Greyback's enemy as an adult.  Not only has he been spying, he's 
been trying to turn Greyback's community away from him.  Two big strikes, 
and I'm willing to bet that Remus has "offended" Greyback.

And while Greyback specializes in children, he had no problems attempting 
to eat Bill Weasley, who's older than Tonks.  So I'm sure if Greyback was 
ticked off enough and his enemy didn't have kids, he could easily make an 
exception and go for his girlfriend/whatever instead.

guz:
Exactly-- if anyone can understand making sacrifices for love, it's
Andromeda Tonks. And she's Sirius's favorite cousin-- are you
telling me she wouldn't be happy that her daughter is with Sirius's
best friend? I wonder if Andromeda and Remus know each other? I
would love to meet Tonks' parents in the 7th book, but
unfortunately, I know it would never end up as more than an cameo
appearance.

Lissa:

Actually, I am saying she might not be happy that her daughter is with 
Sirius's best friend- Sirius's best friend carries a LOT of issues.  She 
might accept it, but... well, if I had a daughter who fell in love with a 
man who was HIV positive, I would be accepting, but it wouldn't be what I 
want for her and yeah, there would be some arguments about it before I 
capitulated.


guz:
Oh man, please let me know when you post the fic-- I'd love to read
it! And the fact that two people aren't madly in love doesn't
necessarily contradict the idea of marriage. In many cultures, the
idea is that you marry first, and then learn/grow to love each other.

Lissa:

I'll definitely let you know.  And while it doesn't contradict the idea of 
marriage, and I'll concede it could happen in the future, they both seem to 
be from a culture were love comes first, then marriage.

Phew!  Long post!

Lissa