Harry as a natural legilimens Was Re: GH in Harry's memory

[saraquel_omphale]

No: HPFGUIDX 137348

Carol wrote:

>Exactly. The question now is, how is Harry, who failed Occlumency,
>going to get this memory out of his head. He needs a skilled
>Legilimens to do it, and the three wizards we know to be Occlumens
>either won't or can't do it: Dumbledore is dead, Voldemort is the
>great enemy, and Snape is now at the top of Harry's personal most
>hated list, whether or not he deserves to be there.
>
>I'm wondering if the Legilimens in question might be the brilliant 
>and shrewd old Ollivander, whose disappearance may indicate that 
>he's in hiding
><snip>
>Any takers or detractors? And if it isn't Olivander, who could it 
>be? I can't see Harry removing a thought from his own head (which 
>requires Occlumency, not Legilimency).

Saraquel:  Slughorn.  He managed to extract his memory quite nicely 
for both DD and Harry. I see no problem in him teaching Harry how to 
do it.

I'm wondering why you think it takes Occlumency to extract a memory. 
Here is what Snape tells Harry about Occlumency and Legilimency in 
OotP (UK ed p468)

"Now Occlumency
. This branch of magic seals the mind against 
magical intrusion and influence. <snip> The Dark Lord is highly 
skilled at Legilimency – "
"What's that? Sir"
"It is the ability to extract feelings and memories fron another 
person's mind –"
"He can read minds?" <snip>
"You have no subtlety, Potter," said Snape 
."You do not understand 
fine distinctions
.The mind is not a book, to be opened at will and 
examined at leisure.  Thoughts are not etched on the inside of 
skulls, to be perused by any invader.  The mind is a complex and 
many-layered thing, Potter 
It is true however, that those who have 
mastered Legilimency are able, under certain conditions, to delve 
into the minds of their victims and to interpret their findings 
correctly."

Then later on p469 Snape says "The evidence suggests that at times, 
when your mind is most relaxed and vulnerable – when you are asleep 
for instance – you are sharing the Dark Lord's thoughts and 
emotions." <snip> (Harry) "I saw the snake attack Mr Weasly." 
(Snape)"the vision you had shortly before Christmas represented such 
a powerful *incursion* upon the Dark Lord's thoughts."

Sorry I've had to snip that to death in order not to type out the 
whole book, and would recommend re-reading the whole passage which 
is very interesting.  Anyway there are two things I want to point 
out here:

1) Occlumency is the ability to *mask* thoughts and feelings.  In 
order to do it, you make your mind a blank (the homework Snape gave 
Harry).  I really don't think that this is how you would extract a 
memory.  I think you need to engage very clearly with one part of 
the memory, hook your wand into that, pull, and everything related 
to it comes away with it.  I don't even think you need to be a 
Legilimens, which is the magical penetration of *other people's* 
minds. I think it is probably something that most good 
witches/wizards can do.  Probably McGonegal could teach Harry.

2) I think that one of the powers which Voldemort transferred to 
Harry is Legilimency.  Harry is a natural legilimens.  The above 
quote indicates to me that Snape is trying hard (and I've snipped 
bits which explain how careful Snape is in his explanation!) not to 
let Harry realise this. Snape eventually uses the word *incursion* 
which to me implies that it was Harry delving into Voldemort's mind 
not Voldemort delving into Harry's, that we are dealing with here. 
Later, when Harry manages to bounce Snape's Legilimency spell, Harry 
easily accesses Snape's head, and manages to interpret, very easily 
what is going on in there. A real natural.
 
If true, this raises some questions:
Presumably DD realises that Harry is a Legilimens and the danger of 
seeing what's in Voldemort's mind is many layered.  DD later says to 
Harry in HBP, that he is amazed (paraphrasing wildly here) that 
Harry, with such access as he has to Voldemort's mind hasn't been 
turned to the dark arts.  So, I think, it is not only to protect 
Harry from Voldemort's cruelty and to protect Order Secrets that DD 
wants Harry to learn Occlumency.  (Mind you, if DD had thought about 
it for even half a second, he would have known that Harry would make 
a hopeless Occlumens.) But in order to protect Harry from temptation.

So Snape is now given the task of teaching Harry (whom he suspects 
to be a natural legilimens) occlumency.  If Snape is ESE! What a 
great task that would be.  Was this also a test of Snape by DD?  If 
he is ESE! I'm amazed that it's only 3 memories we see go into the 
pensieve, I would have thought a 5,000Gb one would hardly have been 
enough to store the stuff he would want to hide. It's no good, I 
keep coming up with evil Snape on the side of good evidence (though 
quite probably only because it serves his interests to be so, or he 
has no choice about it) – I'm just going to have to come down on 
that side of the fence sooner or later :-)

This was only going to be a one word post – Slughorn – but somehow 
I'm now knee deep in Snape speculation, how did that happen? I must 
admit that I've had Snape speculation up to my eyebrows and can take 
no more at the moment. The Snape arguments seem to me akin to the 
unstoppable force meets the immovable object. So how about I take my 
thinking about Harry's natural legilimency in a different direction 
and let others argue that angle out (which undoubtedly they will if 
anyone reads this post, and I'm wondering if anyone will get as far 
as reading the next bit of the post before rushing off to either 
contradict me or grab my thoughts as yet more pro-Snape evidence.)

Harry, Voldemort and legilimency. OOOhhhhh the possibilities for the 
future in that one.  How about the final showdown being a lot to do 
with minds and not much to do with bodies?  OK here's a theory (I've 
posted a bit of it before, but now I'll expand more) which takes 
into account DD's *gleam* (this bit's for you Valky!), blood and the 
power of love.

In the final showdown Harry and Voldemort lock minds, Voldemort 
intent on probing Harry's emotional weaknesses and Harry intent on 
probing Voldemort's fears.  Let's put them either in the Room of 
Love at the MOM (a favourite theory of mine which I'm reluctant to 
let go of) or if not there, then Harry at least has been into the 
Room of Love and can make a connection to it.  Now Voldemort has 
some of Harry's blood in him.  Blood, I think, is where emotion 
lies.  Voldemort is very snake-like physically, therefore cold 
blooded and vulnerable to being burnt by the heat of passionate 
emotion, such as Love.  Harry, who by this time has realised the 
*Power* of Love that DD has been talking about, uses the access he 
has to Voldemort's mind to channel this love into Voldemort and into 
his blood, Voldemort's blood boils and hey presto – dead Voldemort.  
This is why DD had the gleam in his eye, because Harry's blood is 
full of love, and therefore has the potential to destroy Voldemort 
from the inside.  Ok, so where's the cannon support for all this.  
Yes well, dream on Saraquel!