The Importance of the Houses (was:Re: Slughorn a dead end topic?)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 137924

> >>Prep0strus: 
> Ok, I don't know how to use 'snips', and don't often respond in 
> pieces to posts, because I find it more confusing, but I thought  
> I'd try this time.

Betsy Hp:
I love snipping and rearranging and answering to bits and pieces of 
posts, and you did a great job, IMO. :)  

> >>Prep0strus:
> I certainly agree that the main characters could  easily represent 
> the different houses.  Neville usually comes to mind before Ron as 
> a Hufflepuff, but Ron certainly makes sense, especially as a      
> member of the trio.

Betsy Hp:
Hmmm.  I think Neville is the most Gryffindorish Gryffindor who ever 
Gryffindored.  The boy is a walking advertisement for bravery, IMO.  
He took on Crabbe and Goyle in PS/SS for goodness sake!  Plus, he's 
quite the loner, our Neville, and certainly not afraid to go against 
the crowd (as seen in PS/SS also).  So he doesn't strike me as very 
Hufflepuffish at all.  Of course, YMMV. 

> >>Prep0strus:
> It's Harry I find as representing Slytherin to be the most        
> difficult - sure, the hat said he would do well there - if he was 
> ambitious.  But Harry isn't that ambitious.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Atually, the Hat never mentions ambition with regards to Harry.  
Though it does tell Harry that he could be great and that Slytherin 
could help him achieve that greatness, so maybe I'm picking nits.  I 
would point out, however, that Harry is incredibly competitive when 
he wants to be and was none too pleased when he didn't make 
Prefect.  Harry certainly isn't academically ambitious (that's more 
Hermione, as you rightly point out), but he's athletically ambitious 
(which Hermione is not), and he doesn't shirk away from taking a 
lead.  He's not eaten up by ambition, which is a good thing, but 
he's not a withdrawn little wall-flower either.  As the Hat points 
out, Harry does have a thirst to prove himself.

Also, Dumbledore tells Harry (in CoS) that he does have qualities 
admired by Slytherin (resourcefulness, determination and a certain 
disregard for rules).  And in HBP Dumbledore specifically tells 
Harry to use those talents to get the horcrux memory out of Slughorn.

"And you feel that you have exerted your very best efforts in this 
matter, do you? That you have exercised all of your considerable 
ingenuity?  That you have left no depth of cunning unplumbed in your 
quest to retrieve the memory?" (HBP scholastic p.428)

Basically, Dumbledore wanted Harry to unleash his inner-Slytherin on 
Slughorn.  And when Harry finally did, he got the memory he was 
after. (IMO, of course)

> >>Prep0strus: 
> It's more that I don't understand the purpose of the houses if 
> they're not going to represent what they're supposed to, or what  
> the hat has led us to believe they're supposed to.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
But the Hat only gives very general attributes to each House.  And 
JKR, IMO, has done a bang up job of breaking out of the House 
stereotypes with her characters while still maintaining those 
attributes.

For Hufflepuff we get Cedric.  Yes, he's brave and intelligent.  But 
he's also got an incredibly strong sense of fair-play.  He's doesn't 
like that he beat Harry at Quidditch because of a technicality.  
He's the only Champion *not* cheating in the Tri-Wizard tournament.  
(It's interesting that in return for Harry telling him that the 
first challenge is dragons, he only gives Harry *hints* about what 
to do with his egg.  I think he'd have felt out and out telling 
Harry about the mermaid song would be cheating.)

We also get Zach Smith, who is snarky and cynical, but is also leery 
of someone setting themselves outside or above the group.  Which is 
true to the Hufflepuff way, IMO.

For Ravenclaw, yes there's Luna.  She's got a very different way of 
looking at things, but the girl is all about research.  She and her 
father don't just dream about their fantastic beasts, they go 
looking for them.  And she spoke of Hagrids poor teaching skills as 
not looked on well by Ravenclaw and herself.

Gryffindor has Neville, who is so timid and unsure of himself people 
immediately question whether he should be in Gryffindor in the first 
place.  Then he takes on Crabbe and Goyle singlehandedly, stands up 
to Ron, Hermione, and Harry, faces down Bellatrix while undergoing 
the very same torture his parents went insane under, and it becomes 
quite clear that Neville is a Gryffindor through and through.

> >>Prep0strus:
> With a cursory glance, the 4 houses could be described as thus:   
> The Good, The Bad, The Smart, and The Useless.

Betsy Hp:
Well yes, exactly.  And that's how Harry seems to see them in the 
beginning.  Gryffindor was good, Slytherin was bad, and Hufflepuff 
and Ravenclaw were... not on his radar really.  But as the years 
have gone by and Harry has started to grow up his stereotypes about 
the Houses and the people in them have begun breaking down.

Because it's incredibly hard to judge people with a cursory glance.  
Or at least, to judge them accurately.  Slytherin is the last House 
to break out of it's stereotype because it's the house Harry had the 
biggest grudge against.  He went into Hogwarts quite sure it was the 
realm of all evil.  He's starting to realize, I think (and hope) 
that this view is patently untrue.

> >>Prep0strus: 
> And the 'bad', the Slytherin... that seems to be the only         
> qualifying factor.  The main characteristics we've been given for 
> them are ambitious, self-serving, and 'teaching those whose blood 
> is purest'.

Betsy Hp:
And yet, as early as CoS Dumbledore was telling Harry there were 
positive attributes to Slytherin.  Harry chose not to listen to him, 
then.  But I think, with HBP, Harry has started to look at Slytherin 
in a whole new light.  Yes, there is bad in Slytherin, just as there 
is bad in Gryffindor and Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw.  Any of those 
Houses' attributes could be described in a negative way.  And Harry 
has met people from each of those houses he's liked, and people he's 
dis-liked.

> >>Prep0strus:  
> But Crabbe & Goyle, I think I'd put in Hufflepuff if it wasn't for 
> them being 'the bad'. They're 'loyal', and the 'rest', if not     
> hardworking.

Betsy Hp:
I think Crabbe and Goyle are a bit too elitist to be in Hufflepuff.  
They didn't attach themselves to just any old Slytherin.  They 
attached themselves to Draco, who is certainly one of the main 
movers and shakers of his house.  And though they might not be 
academically hardworking, they certainly work hard for Draco 
(memorizing songs, sewing costumes, becoming little girls <g>).

> >>Prep0strus:
> But hardworking would leave out our Ronny as a metaphor for       
> Hufflepuff as well.

Betsy Hp:
Again, not academically, but Ron worked damn hard to get his place 
as Keeper on the Gryffindor team, and I think he's had to work damn 
hard to keep it.  I'd also point out that Ron works quite hard for 
Harry when Harry needs him to.  (He helped Harry practice in GoF 
once he came on board, and he's always done his bit with the 
research.)

> >>Prep0strus: 
> Again, I've gotten myself in trouble with using the word 'good' in 
> that first post.  I do believe Slughorn to be on the side of good, 
> and will not be surprised at all if Snape is as well, or if Draco 
> joins up.  What I mean to say, I guess, is 'appealing', though    
> that's a bit subjective.  I want a Slytherin I can LIKE.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Ahh, yes.  That is a different sort of request.  I think you'll meet 
a Slytherin you can like when Harry meets a Slytherin he can like.  
He's a lot more open to Slughorn, but Harry still holds him at arm's 
length, as you've pointed out.

What will be interesting to see is if an appealing Slytherin *for 
Harry* ever appears.  Personally, I've always liked Draco.  I saw a 
lot of potential in the kid and I was thrilled to see JKR tease it 
to the surface in HBP.  And, of course, I'm mad about Snape.  So, as 
you say, it is quite subjective, but I have a feeling that if Harry 
ever gets around to full out *liking* a Slytherin (as he likes Luna, 
and Cedric) then I expect his view will put a lot of weight on 
the "appealing" side of the scale.

> >>Prep0strus:
> I actually really like your answer about 'Book 7', though I tend  
> to doubt I will find the kind've Slytherin I'm interested in, or  
> the explination that haunts me about the houses.  I really love   
> the minor characters, exploring the kids who wound up in the other 
> houses (and even our other Gryffindors).  After 5, and the DA, I  
> really thought we seem some serious exploring of them in HBP, and 
> was a little disappointed.

Betsy Hp:
I think that HBP was possibly the set up for an appealing Slytherin 
to emerge.  Part of the reason I loved this latest book is the 
insight we *finally* got into Slytherin.  It was the merest of peeks 
(and Crabbe and Goyle *still* didn't get any lines) but it was a 
start.  And I'm hopeful JKR will continue it through.  I think she 
had to let the other minor characters drop for a bit so she could 
give the Slytherin characters (read Draco) more air time. 

> >>Prep0strus:
> I tend to doubt, with everything else that needs to happen, that  
> we'll see too much of it in 7 either.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Oh, I don't know about that.  Four horcuxes, four houses.... I 
imagine some of the minor characters will have a few moments to 
shine (and in JKR's hands it really only takes a scene or two).  
There's already a hint of a connection between Zach Smith and the 
Hufflepuff cup, so there's one minor character that could very well 
have a part to play.

I tend to think JKR planned the houses out very carefully, 
attributes, characters, and all.  So I think they will all come into 
play in book 7.  And I think the importance of the houses and what 
they represent will make a great deal of sense (or at least show 
some sort of meaningful symbolism) by series end.  Or at least, 
that's my hope! :)

Betsy Hp