ACID POPS vs LOLLIPOPS (was:Re: Whom does Snape REALLY love?)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 138959

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > Nowhere do I see any evidence that Snape enjoyed Narcissa       
> > falling all over him.
> > <snip>

> >>Neri:
> You mean like in "His black eyes were fixed upon Narcissa's
> tear-filled blue ones as she continued to clutch his hand" (HBP
> scholastic Ch. 2, p.36)?
> But what you conveniently forget is that the passion must be
> disguised, both inside the story from the present Bella, and in the
> meta-thinking level from the readers.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
There's no sympathy in Snape's eyes, or at least, none is 
described.  This is where Snape's expression has gone blank so it's 
hard for me to see him as being moved.  And though I can buy Snape 
trying to disguise his secret passion from Bellatrix, why would JKR 
try and hide it from her readers?  If she was heading down this path 
shouldn't she foreshadow a bit?  

I have a sneaky suspicion you'd say JKR *has* foreshadowed and I'm 
being remarkably dense in overlooking it.  But I honestly don't see 
any hints at a secret passion. (Is this the point of agree to 
disagree?)

> >>Neri:
> The blank face implies forced control, but not necessarily the    
> lack of passion. Snape is definitely doing some very fast         
> calculation there, but does he also calculate if undertaking this 
> mortal obligation would finally make Narcissa love him? Snape is   
> generally a very controlled and calculated person, but that       
> doesn't necessarily mean that his goals are also calculated and   
> rational. Only his tactics.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I just have a *really* hard time seeing Snape being this 
*incredibly* petty.  Sign up to an Unbreakable Vow in the hopes that 
the hottie might slip you some sugar?  What is Snape -- a drunk frat 
boy?  Yes, Snape can go bat-poo crazy when his emotions are raised.  
We've seen this in PoA and we saw it in OotP.  For Snape to make 
this kind of massive sacrifice at such a critical time (and Snape 
*must* realize how critical the times are no matter what side he's 
on) for such a heart on his sleeve reason he'd have to be operating 
on pure emotion.  And, IMO, that level of emotion is impossible for 
Snape to hide.  He's never been able to before.

> >>Neri:
> Snape despising Lucius indeed depends on you reading (it's obvious
> enough to me, at least) but what is certain is that Snape never    
> even hints that he owes something to Lucius. He makes an          
> Unbreakable Vow and he never even suggests that he's doing it for 
> his friend Lucius.

Betsy Hp:
He doesn't have to, IMO.  Narcissa brings Lucius up, invokes their 
friendship.  Snape agrees to protect the Malfoy scion, so I think 
their friendship is implied.

My personal theory (at the moment) is that Dumbledore and Snape feel 
they need something from the Malfoys (horcrux location information?) 
and that's why Snape hopes to bind the Malfoy family to his side.  
But he's got to be careful about it because he doesn't want 
Voldemort to think his loyalty is compromised.  So I think Snape 
thought this Vow would be a good way to get the Malfoys without 
raising Voldemort's ire.  Or at least, not raise it too badly.  
That's why I think Snape doesn't talk much about Lucius, he's on the 
out's with Voldemort.  But he does show a certain amount of 
compassion for the Malfoy family and their woes.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > First of all, who knew that Snape's nickname was the half-blood 
> > Prince?  Lupin seemed totally unaware.  

> Neri:
> But a secret, self-chosen nickname is likely to be much more      
> personal and revealing than something everybody knows and uses.

Betsy Hp:
So the question becomes, what does Snape's nickname reveal?  
Frankly, I think the answer is still up in the air and depends 
greatly on your view of Snape.  Personally, I think it was Snape 
taking a hated family slur and making it his own.  Possibly with 
Lily's help, since I doubt Snape came up with it on his own.  (I can 
totally see Slughorn's fiesty Lily encouraging Snape to take pride 
in being a half-blood and having fun with the name Prince.)

> >>Betsy Hp
> > Second of all, if Mrs. Black called someone a half-blood        
> > *anything* do you really think she'd have meant it as a         
> > complement?  

> >>Neri:
> That's why it's secret. As I previously wrote, I think our Severus 
> is very ambivalent and has a serious love/hate relationship with   
> the pureblood aristocracy.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Is there any evidence of this in canon?  I haven't seen any, 
myself.  And if Snape *was* interested in the WW "aristocracy" 
shouldn't he adobt at least *some* of the trappings?  Even while 
hating himself a little for doing it?

> >>Betsy Hp: 
> > And third of all, why do you think the nickname was self-        
> > invented?

> >>Neri:
> Even if it wasn't, it was of enough importance for him to sign in 
> the book that held his professional secrets.

Betsy Hp:
I'm not saying that the nickname didn't mean anything to him.  If it 
was given to him by one of his few close friends I'm sure it meant a 
great deal to him.  Just as the Marauders signed their map with 
their nicknames, Snape signed his book with his.

> >>Neri:
> And he proclaims this nickname proudly during his final            
> flight. "I, the Half-Blood Prince!" Isn't that a bit pathetic for 
> a grown man?

Betsy Hp:
Remus and Sirius still referred to each other as Moony and Padfoot 
didn't they? Why should Snape be ashamed of his childhood nickname?  
Yes, the proclamation was cheezy, but I think it was important (for 
both Snape and JKR) to make very clear that those notes were his.  
That combined with how well Harry marked the hiding place of the 
book gives a pretty strong hint (IMO) that the half-blood Prince 
will be of some importance in book 7. 

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > This is the weakest part of ACID POPS, IMO.  Because I see       
> > little plot reason for Snape to be madly in love with Narcissa.

> >>Neri:
> Excuse me! The entire HPfGU list is in upheaval searching for     
> Snape's reason to do such a stupid thing as undertaking the       
> Unbreakable Vow, and I have yet to see an explanation that comes   
> even *close* to Snape being madly in love with Narcissa. 

Betsy Hp:
Heh.  What?  They are? (she asks, tongue firmly in cheek) But it's a 
non-starter, IMO.  So Snape's madly in love with Narcissa.  So 
what?  What does it do for the next book's plot?  What does it 
explain (except for the Vow)? How does it effect Harry?  Does it 
even clear up some of Snape's ambiguity?

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > LOLLIPOPS, on the other hand, provides a possible motive for     
> > Snape leaving Voldemort and joining with Dumbledore. 

> >>Neri:
> First, you treat "Snape leaving Voldemort and joining with        
> Dumbledore" as a given, while right now it is in considerable     
> doubt.

Betsy Hp:
For me there is no doubt, that's true (no ESE!Snape argument has 
made sense to me, yet).  But, even if you think Snape is ESE, 
LOLLIPOPS provides a motive that *Dumbledore* may have found 
credible.  And it's something that Dumbledore would have been 
hesitant to share with Harry.

> >>Neri:
> Second, even assuming for a moment that it *is* a given, ACID POPS 
> can explain it as well as LOLLIPOPS. Snape "joining with          
> Dumbledore" must have occurred not long after Narcissa married    
> Lucius. Severus' last hopes were shattered, and he secretly joined 
> Dumbledore in desperate hope that Voldy will lose, Lucius will get 
> killed, and Snape would become the hero of the winning side while 
> Cissy would be free again.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
It wouldn't explain Dumbledore's trust, though.  The, hopefully her 
husband will die, reason wouldn't do much to win Dumbledore to his 
side I think.  Plus, Dumbledore has already told us (and Harry) that 
Snape felt a great deal of remorse for setting Voldemort onto the 
Potters.  I think Dumbledore was telling a truth there (though not 
the entire story of course).

> >>Neri:
> And ACID POPS isn't bangy? Just think of what Draco will do when he
> finds out. And Lucius and Snape meeting at dawn, wands at twenty
> paces? And whom would Narcissa prefer?
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
But it's only bangy for the Malfoys.  I doubt Harry could care two 
tiddly winks about the Malfoy family drama.  The final book will 
focus, I think, on Harry.  If Snape's story takes him out of Harry's 
view than I doubt we'll see much of it in play.  And won't that be a 
waste of a wonderfully mysterious and ambiguious character?

> >>Neri:
> <beg> ACID POPS is equal or beats LOLLIPOPS in either canon, theme,
> plot considerations, BANGiness, and you-name-it. The only thing    
> ACID POPS can't supply is that wistful image of NobleHero!Snape,
> sacrificing himself in the ungrateful role of a triple agent all   
> for the love of a woman who is fifteen years dead.  

Betsy Hp:
Not if the book is about Harry it doesn't. <g>  Come on, even if 
Snape is evil imagine him telling Harry the reason Voldemort didn't 
want to kill Lily was that she was supposed to be a gift for Snape.  
If that doesn't raise a Luke level scream of anger out of Harry, I 
don't know what will. Though, of course, I'm holding out for 
NobleHero!Snape in the end. *sighs wistfully* <g>

> >>Valky:
> <snip>
> I just can't stand Snape in love with anybody, it doesn't work for 
> me. *shivers* 
> <snip>

> >>colebiancardi:
> <snip>
> I can't see Snape turning his back on LV for a married woman with 
> a newborn baby who is married to his childhood nemesis, either.
> <snip> 

Betsy Hp:
Snape doesn't neccessarily have to have been in romantic love with 
Lily for my theory to work.  He was canonically fairly lonely 
(sitting alone under a bush in OotP) so any friend would be 
important to him.  I think he and Lily became secret friends 
(through a mutual interest in potions) in their first year and she 
gave him his nickname.  I think he visited Lily at her home and he's 
the "horrible boy" who spoke of the dementors guarding Azkaban that 
Petunia referred to in OotP.  

Around fifth year something happened.  Perhaps Snape was being 
actively recruited by Voldemort.  Perhaps, when his invented spell 
became known by his classmates he suspected Lily of betraying him.  
Either way, when he was jumped by James and Sirius he and Lily were 
arguing.  She still came to his rescue but he attacked her, calling 
her the worst name he could think of.  Their friendship was 
officially broken.

So Snape becomes a Death Eater.  Possibly he started having problems 
towards the beginning.  (Like Regulus Black.)  Maybe he was 
blissfully ignorant and quite happy.  Either way, he overhears the 
prophecy while on a Death Eater mission and runs back to share what 
he heard with Voldemort.  Then, to his horror, his information is 
used to fuel Voldemort's intense interest in seeing the entire 
Potter family (including his old friend, Lily) slaughtered.

Snape runs to Dumbledore and tells him everything.  Dumbledore 
believes him and puts the Potters into hiding. (Or maybe into better 
hiding -- since Dumbledore knew the prophecy already.)  But, thanks 
to James's misplaced trust in his friends (Snape's POV), the Potters 
are betrayed and Lily is killed.  Snape is heartbroken and swears 
vengence (or whatever) and Dumbledore realizes that he can fully 
trust Severus Snape.

Not much canon to back this theory, I'll admit.  But it makes a 
certain amount of sense to me, and boy would it drive Harry round 
the bend.  Of course, I myself like the idea of Snape in love 
because otherwise what a waste of the sexy.

Betsy Hp (who wonders if she could have possibly made this post 
longer)