Apologies and responsibility

[zgirnius]

No: HPFGUIDX 139213

 
> Sherry now:
> Emotional and verbal
> abuse is as serious and potentially damaging as physical abuse.  
> That's all I really have to say on the subject.  To me, Harry has 
> taken the high road
> long enough and doesn't need to grovel to Snape.

zgirnius:
I strongly agree with Lady Indigo's overall point that, all future 
events aside, a "best" reaction for Harry in this case would have 
been to speak to Snape about the Pensieve incident again, as this is 
a specific action of Harry's where he was in the wrong, and he 
himself knows/feels it. I certainly do not believe (and am willing to 
guess Indigo also does not) that Harry ought to have grovelled. 
Certainly not, all we are suggesting is a simple, dignified apology.  

 Sherry now:
> 
> There is no way any child should ever have to apologize for the 
deeds of its
> parents.  For that matter, why should someone apologize for the 
wrong
> behavior of any other person.  That doesn't make sense 
psychologically.  My
> father married five times before his death at 57.  Should I and my 
brothers
> and sister now go look up all our ex stepmothers and apologize that 
our
> father could not remain faithful?  Nonsense!  We owe them nothing.  
<snip>
> If somehow, I suddenly became employed by one of my ex stepmothers, 
and she
> spent all our working relationship, bad-mouthing my dad and 
tormenting me
> over what my dad did, or taking it out on me at work in her 
position of
> authority, should I then sit down and say Yes, so-and-so, you are 
right.
> Yes, bad mouth my dad to me.  Yes he was a *****  There's no way 
I'm going
> to do that.  I'd be quiet, even though in my heart I'd know, do 
know, that
> Dad had problems.  But it is not for me to criticize him outside 
the family.
> He doesn't deserve that, when he is no longer here to defend 
himself.  I
> need not defend him, but I need not apologize for him either.  even 
in
> telling this story here, I am not speaking with criticism of Dad or 
to
> defend or regret his actions.  It is not my place to do so.
> 
> Neither is it Harry's place to apologize for his father's actions 
or even to
> betray his father by admitting his dad was wrong to Snape.

zgirnius:
I really like your analogy here, actually, even though below you will 
see that I disagree with your conclusion. I think it is a good fit 
for the situation in which Harry finds himself at Hogwarts vis-a-vis 
Snape...

It is absolutely not your, or Harry's, place, to accept any abuse 
from your hypothetical boss/Snape becasue of your fathers' 
relationships to those persons. Nor do either of you have any 
obligation to apologize to those persons for any bad actions your 
fathers may or may not have committed against them.

However, Harry after the Pensieve incident is in a slightly different 
position than you in your hypothetical job. The overall situation is 
an excellent analogy. But, let's say that in the course of your work 
you have occasional access to your boss's desk. Anyway, one day your 
boss leaves and you succumb to a temptation to look in a drawer where 
you suspect she keeps personal papers. She returns to find you 
reading some really embarrassing detail of her relationship with your 
father. (This is pretty much what Harry did.) We're saying at this 
point, we would suggest you owe your boss a simple, dignified 
apology. *ONLY* for having peeked at her papers, not for the contents 
thereof. You might also choose to take this opportunity (the one time 
you do actually do have something for which to apologize!) to make a 
single attempt to clear the air between you. Along the lines of, "I 
get that you do not like my father. As far as I am concerned, that's 
between you and him. I hope that in the future we can work together 
as professionals."

In my own view, this is not just an issue of good manners/right 
action, there is a practical value as well (though of course, that is 
why we *have* manners, they do grease the wheels of society...). I 
agree that Snape has been treating Snape abysmally all along. And it 
is more than just the favoring Slytherins/dissing Gryffindors dynamic 
that we see with other characters, that one might expect of a Head of 
Slytherin House. No, it's personal. I think that an apology regarding 
this one incident (really a fairly unique case where Harry was in the 
wrong, IMO) would have also been a fine opportunity to confront Snape 
regarding their relationship all these years. Along the lines of, "I 
am sorry I peeked in your Pensieve, Sir. It was wrong of me to do 
so." Followed by  "I understand that you and my father really did not 
get along. That is between the two of you. It need not affect our 
relationship." 

Yes, this might just make Snape madder. Or it might make him think. 
(Or both, in sequence.) I do not see how it could make things 
*worse*. Harry is, as far as I am concerned, free to leave if Snape 
starts blowing up more jars of cockroaches <g>. And by this action, 
even more free to make snide remarks in Snape's class if he so 
wishes, in the future, in the event Snape does not repsond positively 
to this overture.

SHerry:
> And consider this, when you say Harry showed no remorse.  Do you 
think Snape
> could have expected that Harry would rush back to the common room 
and tell
> his friends all about it, which would have ended up racing through 
the
> entire school?  Snape could very well have expected this, but Harry 
has
> never revealed what he saw.  He didn't even need to say it was his 
dad that
> did it.  He could have just talked about some kids bullying and 
embarrassing
> Snape.  But he kept quiet.  I think he deserves some credit for 
that, and it
> is as far as he needs to go in expressing his remorse for looking 
or his
> shame at his dad's actions.  Remember, James was a teenager.

zgirnius:
Oh, definitely, I agree with you 100% here. Harry does get credit for 
keeping this a deep, dark secret. I don't think he would spread it 
around the school, but he mentions it to *noone* who is not already 
in on the incident for having been there. Not even to Hermione to get 
her off his back about Occlumency, though she is someone he might 
trust to keep it quiet, and is someone who has at that point in his 
life been giving him some relationship advice.


And now from post 139200, also in this thread...

Lady Indigo:
> 1. Snape had important skills to teach Harry, and Harry never even
tried to
> tough these lessons out, in spite of how Dumbledore said they were
> necessary.

Alla:

I submit that we don't know that anymore after HBP. Have you noticed
that Dumbledore not only cheerfully calls Occlumency lessons a Fiasco
But he does not even bother to teach Harry Occlumency anymore.

It seems to me that Occlumency may not be vital tool that Harry needs
to defend Voldie.


zgirnius now::
I think this is another case where facts arising *after* the incident 
are being used to explain Harry's action. I believe DD concluded 
Occlumency was not going to be important after LV failed to possess 
Harry at the MoM. Throughout Book 5, for all we know, it *was* a 
vital skill, Harry certainly did not know otherwise. Had Harry had 
this skill, he would not have goon to the Ministry...so we cannot 
dismiss it as useless.

Alla:
>As Lupinlore said Dumbledore actually NEVER insisted for Harry to
>show Snape extra gratitude, just to call him Professor,as any other
>teacher.

zgirnius:
And noone is saying Harry ought to be extra grateful. Not even 
grateful, minus the extra. Using socially accepted formal titles of 
respect such as "Professor" and making simple, prompt apologies for 
bad actions are both examples of manners.