Snape and Prophecy and Harry/Snape as an abuser

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 145521


> Orna:
> I'm not sure that defying Voldemort trice means they were initially 
> on a special hit list. The thing is that most people don't survive 
> the first encounter. The more you defy him – the more you 
> get "upgraded" on his hit-list – you begin to look like a potential 
> threat. Just by ordinary mathematical killers-rules. 
> Anyway I understood that since the prophecy indicated parents who 
> had defied Voldemort trice – it took place before they were chosen 
> by Voldemort. 
> So, as I see it, the prophecy would be sure to direct Voldemort's 
> attention to the Potters and the Longbottoms. 

Alla:

Oh, sorry, I did not mean that they were initially on the special hit 
list. I agree with you on this - the more you defy him, the more you 
get "upgraded"

But I am not sure I agree about that occurring before Prophecy at 
all. We KNOW at least one of Trelawney prophecies, which mostly talks 
about future events, right? (Pettigrew returning to Voldemort), so I 
see no problem with Prophecy doing what it supposed to do 
and "prophesizing" thrice defied part as in it did not happen yet.

But you and Pippin could certainly be right.


 
> >Jen:
> >No one who has spent time with Voldemort would expect him to take 
> >a 'wait and see' approach to the prophecy. That's not in his 
> >psychological make-up and both Snape and Dumbledore know that. 
> 
> Orna:
> I can see what you mean, but I'm not fully sure. I agree that  
> Voldemort wouldn't hesitate for mercy-reasons, and his usual way of 
> dealing with obstacles (Cedric, Frank) is to kill immediately, no 
> second thought spared. 
> But still: 
> DD said that "You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt 
> when he realized how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy". 
> So it seems that there was something unexpected in the way 
Voldemort 
> decided to go. Or just Snape wasn't aware it turned out to be 
people 
> he knew, and was in a life dept towards one of them? 

Alla:

I am fully with Jen on this one ( in fact, Jen I agree with every 
word of your post or probably almost every word). Have Snape expected 
that Voldemort will decide to invited for friendly dinner or tea the 
couple of the Prophecy? I just don't think that he could have seem 
any other outcomes, except that those whom prophecy is about will be 
dead meat ASAP the moment Voldemort learns about the Prophecy and 
decides to act. IMO of course.

And I don't see contradiction in DD's words either. To me " 
unexpected" most likely meant that Potters turned out to be the 
couple of the Prophecy. That is if Snape's remorse indeed  was 
genuine of course.




> Orna:
> We know Snape had been a DE. The question IMO is what do we accept 
> for being an acceptable act/s for accepting him to be one of the 
> good guys. It's a really difficult question, because being a DE he 
> is sure to have caused harm, or might even be deaths – directly or 
> non-directly, on top of his part in Potters death. We know from 
> Bellatrix that he probably wasn't very active, slitherin out of 
> action. Probably did a lot of cunning plans, potions and spell-
> inventing, which IMO are also quite harmful. But the question is – 
> what do we expect a change of sides to include? 

Alla:

The question in RL would be more complicated, but I sure know what I 
expect to include in a change of sides in the story of the character 
who supposedly looking for redemption. REMORSE, real genuine remorse 
and  non-stop hard work to try to right the wrongs he committed, 
otherwise I don't buy him as one of the good guys. IMO of course.


> Pippin:
> Okay, I'm confused. How did Voldemort decide that  the Potters
> were the parents of the One if they hadn't yet defied him three 
times?

Alla:

Do we know for a fact that Voldemort was only looking for the couples 
that can fit under ALL criteria of the Prophecy? This Prophecy does 
matter only because Voldemort learned it, believed it and started to 
act upon it, according to Dumbledore, no?

So, to me it is a very plausible scenario that for Voldemort the 
primary criteria was to look for the boy born in July, NOT how often 
the parents defied him and THAT part of the Prophecy sort of self 
fulfilled itself.


 > Jen: 
<SNIP>
> To switch gears, in my mind there *are* extenuating circumstances, 
> but they're merely speculation. I expect Snape did attempt to save 
> the Potters after delivering the prophecy. I believe his remorse 
was 
> real for whatever yet-to-be-revealed reason. But I do understand 
why 
> you feel the way you do, Alla. All these things may have happened 
> and these feelings been felt, but none of that was told to Harry by 
> Snape himself. Dumbledore continues to run interference for Snape 
> with Harry, attempting to make Snape more palatable in Harry's 
eyes, 
> it seems, while Snape does nothing to make himself more palatable. 

Alla:

YES, Jen exactly. Thank you for writing how I feel so eloquently. I 
want to Snape to say " sorry" from his mouth, NOT Dumbledore's or 
anybody else. Oooops, nobody else is actually sure that he is sorry 
now. But yes, your scenario is possible, but I want to hear the word 
from the man himself.

As to Sirius, no I would not compare the failed plan to "save" 
Potters with conspiracy to kill them.


> Lupinlore:
> "I also have a great deal of experience with abused teens -- 
> abused literally to death in two cases.  And from my point of 
> view, Snape most definitely IS an abuser, over and out.  So are 
> the Dursleys, but for some reason they don't get as much press, 
> these days."

BAW: 
> Being a meanie is not the same thing as being an abuser.  
> Compared to cases I have seen, Snape is as a candle to a bonfire.  
> The Dursleys, although not nice people, would seem positively 
> cuddly compared to some of the poor excuses for parents/guardians 
> I have encountered.

Alla:

Yes, being a meanie is not the same as being an abuser. NO, I don't 
see Snape as the worst abuser in the world, but how not being the 
worst one does not make him an abuser at all? 

I worked with domestic violence survivors and I saw some horrible 
cases  of physical abuse, but it OFTEN started with very similar to 
what Snape does ( analogy is loose of course, I am only analogizing 
the behavior) - namely emotional abuse.

I don't see the need to compare what Snape does with the worst cases, 
you know. On his own, I evaluate Snape as clear-cut example of 
emotional abuse. Again, I understand that many people don't see it 
like that, but that is my opinion .

JMO,

Alla