James, a paragon of virtue? Was: Why Do You Like Sirius?

M.Clifford Aisbelmon at hotmail.com
Sun Feb 13 07:40:59 UTC 2005


No: HPFGUIDX 124455


> Valky then:
> > > Oh I bet he did tell her that actually. And she curtly replied:
> 
> Whiz:
> 
> ???  Um... what page was that on?
> 

Valky now:

A future page most likely Whiz. It's pure speculation. But It's well 
supported in canon. 

The general gist of the whole thing is that, well from my personal 
POV anyway, James and Sirius pensieve bullying has an underlying 
ontological dynamic. 

In a WW where Dark Magic is at War with the Light (Marauders Era) a 
certain couple of too smart for their own good teenagers, with 
delusions of grandeur and probably some dreams of being brave heroes 
of battle in the future to boot (James and Sirius) actively sought 
out an element consistent with the antithesis of their ideology, one 
snarky unusual boy with a reknowned affinity for the Dark Arts 
(Snape). JP and SB, in their self-righteous dislike for what they 
perceived to be an element of the enemy, and also in their passion 
and craving for danger, deliberately provoked the said enemy(SS) to 
attack them quite regularly. All to frequently, possibly due to 
their numbers, and very likely due to JP's superior athleticism, 
they bested him before he could get a shot off. So then in further 
self righteous indignation they proceeded to make a mockery of the 
Boy and his "superior power of the Dark Side" with embarrasingly 
benevolent spells. They thought they were funny, righteous and brave.
Lily thought that they were just plain nasty. And so do a lot of 
other people, which is perfectly fair to say. 

So in respect to what I said above about Lily answering James 
curtly, I was speculating what she might say if James *had* tried to 
explain to her that he attacked Snape because of a hatred for Black 
Arts Ideology. 

The rest is not directly addressed at you Whiz, but more generally 
for everyone as canon backup for all I have said here.

I'd say they probably did discuss it while they were dating, and I 
go on to believe that Lily in return made a convincing argument to 
James as to why he wasn't really achieving *any* service to the side 
of "light" ideology via his actions. 

I kind of see that this is foreshadowed by an unspoken exchange 
between them in the pensieve scene. 

Lily says: What's he ever done to you.
James says: Well it's because he exists.. If you know what I mean.
Lily says: You think you're funny. You're just and arrogant bullying 
toerag
Later...
Snape says: ...filthy Mudbloods like her.
Lily says: Fine.. I won't bother in the future. And I'd wash your 
pants if I were you *Snivellus*
James says: Apologise to Evans.
Lily says: I don't want *you* to make him apologise. you're just as 
bad as he is.
James says: WHAT! I'd never call you a - you-know-what!

Ok before we start arguing a retranslation let me pre-empt.
Notice when James says I would never call you a you know what, There 
is NO emphasis on the word "you" and piles of emphasis on the "you-
know-what". So anyone about to argue that that line is all about how 
he feels about Lily, and not how he feels about purebloodism, bad 
luck, you can't prove it. ;P

If Lily doesn't understand what James means when he says, Well its 
because he exists if you know what I mean" then why doesn't she 
answer with, "No I don't know what you mean you bullying toerag!" 
She *knows* what he means, and he knows that it's something that 
matters to her because he coaxed it out of her. her reply was "You 
think you're funny. You're just..."
Ahhh she did understand his point, she just didn't agree with it.

Later she shows how she understands *why* James thinks he is funny.
When Snape attacks James with the 'cutting curse' (probably not 
quite so innocuous as it was made out to be, It was pointed at James 
face and left a gash) When James retaliated against this not so 
innocuous curse with a relatively harmless spell that mocked Snape, 
Lily had to stifle a laugh. Not because she was a hard hearted 
person, but because it *is* funny to see a violent and angry 
engagement defused with a comical retaliation. 

Finally when Snape turned on her with the name-calling, what exactly 
did she use to reply? *Snivellus* and much emphasis on it! Lily 
understood perfectly well what *that* meant. It is *we* who do not.


> Valky:
> > > James did stop humiliating Snape publicly, but the private 
battle between them continued, simply because they couldn't stand the
sight of each other.
> 
> Whiz:   
> I think it was much deeper than that, but it does seem that Snape 
was the aggressor and James was put in the position of having to 
retaliate.
>

Valky now:
I agree Whiz, I think Snape was fairly frequently the aggressor in 
these smaller private duels.
 
> Magda:
> > 
> > I refer to OOTP, Chapter 29, pages 591-592, Cdn. paperback:
> > 
> > "'Even Snape?' said Harry.
> > 
> > "Well," said Lupin slowly, "Snape was a special case.  I mean, he
> > never lost an opportunity to curse James so you couldn't really
> > expect James to take that lying down, could you?"
> > 
> > "And my mum was OK with that?"
> > 
> > "She didn't know too much about it, to tell you the truth," said
> > Sirius.  "I mean, James didn't take Snape on dates with her and 
> > jinx him in front of her, did he?'"
> > 
> > So I would submit that Lily was not aware that James and Snape 
> > were continuing their relations in the normal manner (to use a
> > value-neutral expression).  Why hide it from her if there was
> > principled reason for it, if it was an anti-DA activity?
> >

Valky now:
Because she didn't agree with it. She thought it crossed the line in 
to being "Just as bad as he.." (Snape) was.









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