DD the Legilimens vs TR the Occlumens

[fanofminerva]

No: HPFGUIDX 131880


> > <original post snipped> 
> bboyminn:
> 
> First, you are assuming that Tom Riddle (aka:Voldemort) is skilled 
at
>  Occlumency. 

Yes, that was an assumption.

The books only tell us he is skilled at Legilimency,
> Second, you are assuming that a highly intelligent, old and wise,
> experienced teacher like Dumbledore needs to use Legilimency to 
tell
> if a student is lying. 

No, I'm not assuming that at all.  My point was the "penetrating 
stare."  If that had not been in the passage, then I would agree 
with you...wise, old teacher and all.

As your own experience with parents and
> teachers should tell you, teens are not as good at lying as they 
would
> like to make themselves believe, so I think in 99% of the cases,
> parents, teachers, or Dumbledore don't need to rely on magic to
> determine the presence of falsehoods.

I agree, but that penetrating stare thing...

> 
> That said, I suspect that Dumbledore MAY have probed Tom just deep
> enough to determine that Tom wasn't telling him everything, and 
wasn't
> being completely truthful. 

Makes sense.

But those who are skilled at Legilimen have
> an ethic obligation. They can't go around probing the mind of every
> person they meet for little or no reason other than the fact that 
they
> can. 

I would think that the death of a student and probable closure of 
Hogwarts would be completely within an ethical obligation.  This was 
no ordinary probing of a student.  A student died and another 
student was walking the hallways at a time when he should not have 
been.

A persons thought are very private and personal, and should
> therefore be respected. So again, I think Dumbledore may have raise
> his Legilimens /radar/ to the level of intuition, and sensed that
> Riddle wasn't being completely truthful, but I really don't think 
at
> the time and place, he probed deeply into Riddle's mind, and 
extracted
> detailed information.

I would agree with that.

> 
> <snip>
 
>I certainly can't prove that last part, but the point I'm actually
> making is that with so little information of the details of
> Legilimency, we really don't know it's internal workings.
> 
> I think there is some truth in the idea that Dumbledore used some
> degree of Legilimens, but we see nothing to indicate that Tom 
Riddle
> block his efforts with Occlumency, nor do we have informtion
> indicating that Tom/Voldemort is particularl skilled at 
Occlumency. 
> 
> I suspect he has some very basic skills in this area, Tom is,
> afterall, a very powerful, skilled, experienced, and highly 
educated
> wizard, and logically, Occlumency would be a skill that would serve
> him, but, again, we have no indications in the books that I can
> remember, that indicate that Tom/Voldie has anything more that a
> reasonable and basic working knowledge of Occlumency.
> 
> For what it's worth.
> 
> Steve/bboyminn

Yes, be we do not have any canon stating that he is not powerful in 
this area either.  It will be interesting to see the future 
confrontations between DD and LV.

Julie