Ginny, Snape and assorted desiderata ...

[Richard]

No: HPFGUIDX 133770

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" 
<darkmatter30 at y...> wrote:
> > 
> > So, starting with Ginny and Harry, I have no problem with this 
> > relationship at all.  I'd long thought that the only two girls 
who 
> > made sense as interests for Harry were Hermione and Ginny, and 
despite 
> > assertions from several that they did not see this coming, or 
that it 
> > was to peremptorily presented, I think the basis for it lies 
> > definitely as far back as CoS, and even SS/PS. 
> > 
> 
> I used to be a very active member of this Group a few years ago, 
and I
> clearly remember many discussions about Hermione's romantic 
feelings
> for Harry and her non-romantic feelings for Ron. IMO, these people
> tended to be the ones who identified with Hermione and wanted her 
to
> be with Harry because they preferred Harry (the hero, the 
celebrity of
> the series) over Ron (the sidekick). And for these people, any 
pairing
>  contrary to what they want will be unsuitable. That's why I don't
> bother with the "shippers"---they're too narrow-minded, which makes
> them overlook many of the blatantly obvious clues Rowling has been
> dropping in the previous books.

Richard:
I think this is a pretty much anticipatible problem in such a long 
serious that gets spread over so many real-world years.  People are 
left to speculate, and with so much material, personal views, 
desires, and such will tend to out-weigh the story as it is being 
told.

Still, I wouldn't count the H/Hr ship as resting eternally at the 
bottom of the Sea of Love, either.  What might happen if Ron and 
Ginny are both dead at the end of the tale is quite open to 
speculation, and, as I've said, there are logical reasons for 
thinking that the only two viable ships for Harry thus far are H/Hr 
and H/G.  (Keep repeating, "Knowledge, concern, respect and 
responsibility!")  When the basic requirements for love are 
fulfilled, the question ceases to be, "Why would he/she/they?" and 
becomes, "Why not?"

> > 
> > As for Snape, I think his loving Lily is still on the table as a 
real 
> > possibility.  Why?  Slughorn has said repeatedly that Lily was 
very 
> > gifted at potions.  This opens at several possible arguments on 
the 
> > point, and her are a few of them.
> > 
> > First, since we "know" that Snape was very gifted in this field, 
it 
> > might be the case that he helped Lily, and that the dislike of 
her 
> > that he also been stated in canon came later due to her 
rejection of 
> > him in favor of James.  In this line, it could be argued that 
her 
> > disapproval of James' treatment of Snape in the pensieve scene 
was in 
> > part a certain loyalty to someone who had helped her, and not 
merely 
> > her sense of fairness.
> > 
> 
> In OoP US hardcover page 649 Chapter: Snape's Worst Memory:
> 
> "there you go, " he {James] said, as Snape struggled to his feet
> again, "you're lucky Evans was here, Snivellus-"
> 
> "I don't need help from filthy little Mudbloods like her!"
> 
> I don't get the feeling that Snape had the hots for Lily with that
> remark....
> 
> BUT this does give an interesting look into Snape's psyche: he's a
> half Muggle, yet he holds a Muggle born in contempt. So Snape is
> projecting his perceived undesirable qualities onto Lily (and other
> Muggle borns).

Richard:
I see more than a little self-loathing in Snape, even though he is 
also a very proud person.  (OK, "egotist" may be a better term.)  
And I don't think you can discount any possible attraction until we 
have JKR's final word precisely because if Lily WAS that good at 
potions she might STILL have Snape's respect, even as he is/was 
deeply ambivalent about it.  Further, a comment made at a point 
where he might well be recognizing Lily's drift towards James, with 
the resulting resentment that would certainly attend in a person 
like Snape, shouldn't be seen as definitive with regard to all 
relations between the two for all time.

Note that I offered three different scenarios with regard to the 
POSSIBILITY of Snape's loving Lily, and that I pointed out that 
there are many variations on the theme possible.  I think this is 
simply a point at which we should all maintain a certain logical 
suspension, and wait for JKR to finish her tale.  I have no doubt 
that there are surprises in store, and this might still be one of 
them.

> I don't buy that Snape co-wrote the notes in the Potions book nor 
that
> he had help from anyone in his year. That detracts from Snape's
> abilities as a potions master. 

Richard:
I don't expect you to "buy" anything.  Just keep in mind as you read 
that there are lots of things yet to be revealed, and some surprise 
on this line shouldn't be unbelievably shocking.  I'm sure that the 
notes regarding potions in the text were ENTIRELY in Snape's hand, 
but not sure that they were entirely from Snape's mind.  We shall 
see (or not) as JKR completes her tale.  In the mean time, just 
consider the possibility that at least some of the ideas might have 
come from Lily, who Snape might well have regarded as gifted enough 
in potions to be tolerable ... until she fell for James.

> > I don't see the complaints about Tonks and Remus at all.  I 
think what 
> > we are seeing is simply that the Potterverse is broader than 
canon.  
> > People continue to live lives, fall in love, fight, etc., 
outside of 
> > canon, and it is not necessary for canon to incorporate all of 
this 
> > into canon.  To me, this demonstrates a rather richer 
imagination on 
> > the part of JKR than many an author, and is to her credit, 
especially 
> > as she is often able to use "off canon" to build plot that is 
> > subsequently canonized.
> > 
> I also think it would have detracted from the Harry plot if Rowling
> delved into the Tonks Remus relationship more. Let's face it, 
Harry is
> in school. He has limited contact with Tonks and Remus during the
> school year---why would we need to cut away to a dinner date with
> Tonks and Remus? This is Harry Potter not "The O.C." 

Richard:
Never having watched "The O.C.," I'm not sure what you are talking 
about.  I only know enough about it to know that I would probably 
become physically ill if forced to watch it.